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Theft Light, Idiot Lights And Stalling

54K views 84 replies 9 participants last post by  Mimi82 
#1 ·
Within the last two days an interesting scenerio has been happeing... but at completely random.

It started while I was at a stop light. I wasn't really paying attention but I felt the car kinda of jerk like I had been bumped from behind (and that's what I thought it was b/c the truck was really close to me in the rear-view). When I let off on the brake the car didn't go anywhere and that's when I noticed all the dash lights on (idiot lights as some call them) and the RPM's at 0.. the car had just stalled!

I put it in Park and started again with no problems for the rest of the night.

Now lastnight, I go out and start the car after going to dinner with some friends. Within only 5 mins of bs'ing with the friends the car was idling and stalled (same problem with all the lights on again and no RPM's). I restarted and it happened one more time a few minutes later.

I started driving after it stopped misbehaving and the THEFT light came on in which I felt the car jerk a bit (small like dropping from Odrive to Drive) and then the Theft light went out and it drove like normal. The theft light came on once more.

All and all this was only 10-15 mins after starting the car. After that no symptoms occured for the rest of the trip home (about another 15 mins or so).

Any ideas? I see that a bad battery or alternator could be causing some of this. The only thing is that I just had the battery replaced about 3 months ago and I believe that it is working just fine. I have noticed that the Serpentine Belt system is still squeeling (even after replacing the idler pully - have a write up in the Common Problems section). The squeeling is pretty high on the pulley system, right around the Alternator. Could my alternator be gonig? If so, what are the symtoms and is there some way to check?

Thanks in advance. I hope I have provided enough information and a clear enough description to get some good responses!

~Ricer333

01 SES
115K miles
3.0 Vulcan
 
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#52 ·
The "Power Point" is the in cabin 12 volt outlet that looks like a cigar lighter socket & is likely the socket you say doesn't have power.

Seeing as how the power point socket looks like a cigar lighter, maybe you have the lighter in the wrong socket!!!!
 
#53 ·
The "Power Point" is the in cabin 12 volt outlet that looks like a cigar lighter socket & is likely the socket you say doesn't have power.

Seeing as how the power point socket looks like a cigar lighter, maybe you have the lighter in the wrong socket!!!!
[/b]

Well, I just replaced it and the cigar lighter is working again!

I don't think I have the cigar lighter and 12v in-cabin power source mixed up b/c the cigar lighter has springs in it that pop the lighter out. Also, if I 'try' and put the cigar lighter in the 12v source it will never get hot.

Well, one thing fixed. Still haven't gotten to taking off the PCM and taking pics of the connections. I am aiming to get that done today but the engine is pretty warm from the drive.

I have also disconnected the radar detector from the quick splice. Just thought I would test that theory as well. This time, I won't know when it's about to happen, but if it does, I will test the 12v source and the cigar lighter right away. Thinking of that, i'm going to run out now and get baselines while the 'event' is not happening.
I'll post back in a few and give you what i got at those two sources.


Baseline results:
Cigar Lighter - Off 12.87 volts, On 13.90-14.02 volts
12v incabin - Off 12.86 volts, On 13.89-14.01 volts
 
#54 ·
SHO and other TCCA Members. I wanted to give an update and ask a basic electrical question.

UPDATE: The car has been running fine since the last post March 23rd. It is now April 28th and not one sign of 'the Theft Light symptom'.

The radar detector has been unplugged above and at the Ignition wire source. Now this is my question.

WHY oh why (or bet yet how) would a radar detector screw up the ignition wire signal and throw this Theft light.

I had heard that if the transmitter/receiver in the Ignition switch ever broke with the Chip in the Car Key then the THEFT light would appear thinking that the car was started illegally.

So, I just would like to know for my own benefit why or how this could occur? Theories and real life experiences are most welcome!

Curious as always,
~Matt
 
#55 ·
Within the last two days an interesting scenerio has been happeing... but at completely random.

It started while I was at a stop light. I wasn't really paying attention but I felt the car kinda of jerk like I had been bumped from behind (and that's what I thought it was b/c the truck was really close to me in the rear-view). When I let off on the brake the car didn't go anywhere and that's when I noticed all the dash lights on (idiot lights as some call them) and the RPM's at 0.. the car had just stalled!

I put it in Park and started again with no problems for the rest of the night.

Now lastnight, I go out and start the car after going to dinner with some friends. Within only 5 mins of bs'ing with the friends the car was idling and stalled (same problem with all the lights on again and no RPM's). I restarted and it happened one more time a few minutes later.

I started driving after it stopped misbehaving and the THEFT light came on in which I felt the car jerk a bit (small like dropping from Odrive to Drive) and then the Theft light went out and it drove like normal. The theft light came on once more.

All and all this was only 10-15 mins after starting the car. After that no symptoms occured for the rest of the trip home (about another 15 mins or so).

Any ideas? I see that a bad battery or alternator could be causing some of this. The only thing is that I just had the battery replaced about 3 months ago and I believe that it is working just fine. I have noticed that the Serpentine Belt system is still squeeling (even after replacing the idler pully - have a write up in the Common Problems section). The squeeling is pretty high on the pulley system, right around the Alternator. Could my alternator be gonig? If so, what are the symtoms and is there some way to check?

Thanks in advance. I hope I have provided enough information and a clear enough description to get some good responses!

~Ricer333

01 SES
115K miles
3.0 Vulcan
[/b]
some might say this is a bad idea, but it works... when my alt died i did the "old fauthful" test, disconnect the positive terminal while running the car... i did that then i went to auto zone to confirm my research... my alt was dead so i purchased a high output alt(which was a b***h to install) and did the same test and it kept running... it still sounds like i have a turbocharger on idle so my guess is its not the alt "whistling while it works"... or not :dunno:
 
#56 ·
<div class='quotemain'>
Within the last two days an interesting scenerio has been happeing... but at completely random.

It started while I was at a stop light. I wasn't really paying attention but I felt the car kinda of jerk like I had been bumped from behind (and that's what I thought it was b/c the truck was really close to me in the rear-view). When I let off on the brake the car didn't go anywhere and that's when I noticed all the dash lights on (idiot lights as some call them) and the RPM's at 0.. the car had just stalled!

I put it in Park and started again with no problems for the rest of the night.

Now lastnight, I go out and start the car after going to dinner with some friends. Within only 5 mins of bs'ing with the friends the car was idling and stalled (same problem with all the lights on again and no RPM's). I restarted and it happened one more time a few minutes later.

I started driving after it stopped misbehaving and the THEFT light came on in which I felt the car jerk a bit (small like dropping from Odrive to Drive) and then the Theft light went out and it drove like normal. The theft light came on once more.

All and all this was only 10-15 mins after starting the car. After that no symptoms occured for the rest of the trip home (about another 15 mins or so).

Any ideas? I see that a bad battery or alternator could be causing some of this. The only thing is that I just had the battery replaced about 3 months ago and I believe that it is working just fine. I have noticed that the Serpentine Belt system is still squeeling (even after replacing the idler pully - have a write up in the Common Problems section). The squeeling is pretty high on the pulley system, right around the Alternator. Could my alternator be gonig? If so, what are the symtoms and is there some way to check?

Thanks in advance. I hope I have provided enough information and a clear enough description to get some good responses!

~Ricer333

01 SES
115K miles
3.0 Vulcan
[/b]
some might say this is a bad idea, but it works... when my alt died i did the "old fauthful" test, disconnect the positive terminal while running the car... i did that then i went to auto zone to confirm my research... my alt was dead so i purchased a high output alt(which was a b***h to install) and did the same test and it kept running... it still sounds like i have a turbocharger on idle so my guess is its not the alt "whistling while it works"... or not :dunno:
[/b][/quote]


I am just completely at a loss for this posting above steph??? Is that a question you are asking??? A comment about something you did at one point???? Or just random babble?

Just to clarify, I believe the problem has been fixed since I have totally removed the radar detector. I'm just wondering HOW or WHY a radar detector could screw with an electrical signal to simulate/cause the THEFT light to come on and off.
 
#57 ·
TCCA,
I am back again with this problem. March 23 (as stated above) I had replaced a fuse and disconnected the Radar Detector altogether.

Well, last night the problem happened 3x in a matter of an hour. I did not have any sort of tools on me to take readings from the 12volt or cigar lighter sources. I can only imagine that they were jumping all over the place as that has been the symptoms in the past.

Here's the deal. I took it to an AZ and had them load test the alternator. The kid hooked up red to positive and black to negative and then the black circular around the output wire on the alternator. He did several load tests and said that it was charging the battery (13.9volts being sent to the battery I believe). The tests did not come back bad in his mind.

So I'm back at step one. It has been a little over 2.5 months with no problems. I had really thought that the radar detector was the problem, but I didn't do anything last night differently. If anyone can help on this I would greatly appreciate it. I am currently looking to buy a home and do not want the added pressure of having to put money into this for a gremlin to be tracked down or a new car payment.

~Matt

:(
 
#58 ·
Good grief the problem is back????!!!!

Well lets think about this some more. You last removed the Radar Detector & replaced the blown power point fuse & it's been doing fine since.

So what changed on this last drive cycle???? Did you plug the Radar Detector back in, or add some other electrical load, or did your driving conditions dramatically change, any repairs just before this latest event, ect, ect????

Good idea to have the electrical system load tested.
Was the voltage number you posted, with the system at speed & under load, or no load & at idle speed????

I kinda get the feeling that you aren't really sure of this guys test results, if so take it elsewhere & get a second opinion.

Did you ever get the Actron scantool???? If so, what codes are stored, or what PID's don't look right????

Did this problem happen a idle speed, if so did the engine stall???? I'm thinking IAC problems maybe????!!!!
 
#59 ·
Good grief the problem is back????!!!!

Well lets think about this some more. You last removed the Radar Detector & replaced the blown power point fuse & it's been doing fine since.

So what changed on this last drive cycle???? Did you plug the Radar Detector back in, or add some other electrical load, or did your driving conditions dramatically change, any repairs just before this latest event, ect, ect????

*** ANSWER: Nothing has changed. I have used the cigar lighter off and on for cell phone charging. The cell phone was charging and I thought maybe that was it. So I removed it after the first time and it happened again 2 more times. ***

Good idea to have the electrical system load tested.
Was the voltage number you posted, with the system at speed & under load, or no load & at idle speed????

*** ANSWER: On top of the machine putting a load on the car, I had put my fans on HIGH, LIGHTS ON, and AC ON. So yes, I believe there was enough of a load to test this properly. ***

I kinda get the feeling that you aren't really sure of this guys test results, if so take it elsewhere & get a second opinion.

*** ANSWER: I did get a good feeling out of this guy. I had just mentioned this because the clamp that most put around the negative wire he put around the positive output of the alternator. He explained why he did it that way was to specifically read what was coming out of the alternator as opposed to what was getting to the battery. ***

Did you ever get the Actron scantool???? If so, what codes are stored, or what PID's don't look right????

*** ANSWER: I did not because I thought the problem was solved. What's the best part of this lately is that just yesterday I was talking with my friend and told him how I thought it must have been the radar detector being hooked up to the Ignition wire and maybe some interference. We decided that I would hook it up to the cigar lighter instead this weekend. Guess the gremlin heard us and decided he was going to screw with me some more :( ***

Did this problem happen a idle speed, if so did the engine stall???? I'm thinking IAC problems maybe????!!!!
*** ANSWER: This happend both at IDLE speed (backing up from a drive way, put the car from R to N and then to D) so my RPM's could not have been more than 800 or 900 at MOST!. It also happened while driving but did not stall as the car's RPM's where high enough. While driving it did trigger the RPM cluster to BOUNCE, if that helps at all. I personally just think that the BOUNCING is the rebooting of the PCM and the RPM cluster would BOUNCE if the car doesn't stall at IDLE. ***


[/b]
 
#60 ·
Have you pulled the cables off the MEGA fuse post and looked to see that all is good there?

It sounds like either a bad cable, corrosion on the cable ends of bad alternator to me. Either that or the battery saver relay needs replaced.

I don't see how any minor load that won't blow a fuse would cause any of this.
 
#61 ·
Well lets see, if happened just as you shifted from "R" to "D" after backing out of the driveway, maybe the TRS, it's electrical connector & wiring still belong on your suspect list.

Also I believe in addition to removing the Radar Detector & finding the power point fuse blown & replacing it, you had just removed the computes electrical connector to check it's contacts for bent or pushed back pins or sockets, or any corrosion thereon & replaced the connectors cover, which you posted pictures of. Just trying to recall ALL the things you last did, just before it stopped acting out last time.

As I recall this problem was first solved when you replaced the alternator, only to have it return, then find the replacement alternator regulator had a bad diode & you replaced the alternator again.

So SHOZ123 has a point, one of the common themes running through all this commotion has been a faulty alternator, so I suppose it still belongs on your suspect list for now.

Through all this, have you tried a "wiggle" test of the battery cables & the TRS connector & it's wiring, while the vehicle is in gear?????

Have you inspcted & wiggled all the battery to engine & battery to body ground connections & like SHOZ123 said, the B+ cable from the battery, all the way to the power distibution box????

More things to ponder.
 
#62 ·
Have you pulled the cables off the MEGA fuse post and looked to see that all is good there?

It sounds like either a bad cable, corrosion on the cable ends of bad alternator to me. Either that or the battery saver relay needs replaced.

I don't see how any minor load that won't blow a fuse would cause any of this.
[/b]

I have yet to find this 'magical battery saver' relay. I already replaced the PCM relay as stated earlier in this huge long thread.

I have pulled connections (when I was under the hood last) about 2.5 months ago and nothing looked corroded.

Well lets see, if happened just as you shifted from "R" to "D" after backing out of the driveway, maybe the TRS, it's electrical connector & wiring still belong on your suspect list.

Also I believe in addition to removing the Radar Detector & finding the power point fuse blown & replacing it, you had just removed the computes electrical connector to check it's contacts for bent or pushed back pins or sockets, or any corrosion thereon & replaced the connectors cover, which you posted pictures of. Just trying to recall ALL the things you last did, just before it stopped acting out last time.

As I recall this problem was first solved when you replaced the alternator, only to have it return, then find the replacement alternator regulator had a bad diode & you replaced the alternator again.

So SHOZ123 has a point, one of the common themes running through all this commotion has been a faulty alternator, so I suppose it still belongs on your suspect list for now.

Through all this, have you tried a "wiggle" test of the battery cables & the TRS connector & it's wiring, while the vehicle is in gear?????

Have you inspcted & wiggled all the battery to engine & battery to body ground connections & like SHOZ123 said, the B+ cable from the battery, all the way to the power distibution box????

More things to ponder.
[/b]

I will try the wiggle and test theory. I hate to have the car in gear though because the parking brake is not strong enough to hold it from rolling backwards or forwards. Can I do this in NEUTRAL? The alternator test just didn't come back a bad diode as it has in the past when this was happening more frequently.

When I get some time I will take a closure look at what you and SHOZ have posted and see what I can find. Please keep posting back with any new information or thoughts on this.

ALSO, if anyone has a specific location (i.e. RELAY #XXX) for this battery saver relay in a 2001 Taurus SES please let me know.
I am all down for an $8 relay change out.

~Matt
 
#64 ·
This is really going to throw you for a loop when it starts cutting out going down the freeway at 60mph like our has been doing for the last several months, and then just starting right back up BY IT SELF, like nothing was ever wrong.
 
#65 ·
Battery saver relay is under the hood in the central junction box.
[/b]

SHOZ, I hate to be picky, but you would mind giving me a relay number? The only reason I ask is because my manual has some xeroxed pages pasted in it. Looks like the original diagrams were wrong and someone 'fixed' them. I do not have a way to very if this was done at the factory, the rental agency that owned it, or the used dealer that I bought it from.

Thanks!
 
#70 ·
Yup, seems to be correct, after actually looking it up, LOL.

[attachmentid=25980]



[attachmentid=25981]
 

Attachments

#71 ·
Back to the drawing board.

The actual relay should be in the Central Junction Box which is under the hood.

#26 in the pax compartment is just the fuse for the relay.

Well, rudedog, it's apparently relay K115.

Got a diagram of the CJB that shows the position of K115?
 
#72 ·
I don't see any relays in the CJB Central Junction Box. Which is also labeled above as P91, just like it is here.

[attachmentid=25982]


Only other thing I have found on my Cd.

[attachmentid=25983]
 

Attachments

#73 ·
All I know so far is that the battery saver relay is relay number K115 on the electrical diagram.

We just need to figure out the location of K115.

The consensus seems to be that it's under the hood in the CJB, and that's what the one diagram and other posters seem to indicate.



Well, I'm confused.

The relays I can ID don't seem to match the manual diagrams for location.
 
#76 ·
Open the car door so the interior lights are on. Pull relays until they go out.
[/b]

Is your thinking that FUSE 26 is for the interior lights and that the relay feeds the power to the fuse? If that's the case how would we know that it wasn't the ACCESSORY relay in front of the BATTERY SAVER RELAY that I pulled?

Also is CJB the same as PDB?

Is it slang for what FORD calls PDB? Just wanted to ask the question now before I go pulling FUSES.

Also, btw, no incidents since the posting a couple of nights ago... so go figure. The gremlin knows that TCCA is on to him!
 
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