Taurus Car Club of America : Ford Taurus Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone,

I've been having problems with my 98 sable. For a while now sometimes when we start the car it is pop and stay at aboue 1/2 rpm idle untill it either dies or suddenly increases to normal idle. We had this problem in the past however at that time it wouldn't start at all. It ended up being the fuel pump which we had fixed.

Starting yesterday i have had problems getting the car to start at all. when i try and turn it over it doesn't fire at all (starter sounds fine). It took about 10 turn overs yesterday to get it started. Once it started It drove around fine and started fine on a warm engine. However once again this morning I had problems getting it to start (about 20+ turnovers).

We are getting a code for the EGR valve which I was told shouldn't be causeing this problem. We have a remanufactored MAF sensor, idle air control valve, fuel pump and EGR vavle. Would the EGR Valve Pressure Sensor or EGR Vacuum Solenoid cause this problem. I'm not sure what i should do at this point, any help would be greatly apprecatied.

Thanks,
Rosie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,473 Posts
Welcome to TCCA.

Is the CEL/SES light lit???? If so, have the computer scanned for trouble codes & post All of the trouble code Numbers in this thread, as they can offer up good trouble shooting clues.

Most autoparts stores will scan the computer at no cost if the trouble light is lit, or if your having problems. Have it scanned even if the trouble light isn't lit, as pending codes can be stored that haven't happened enough times to have the computer turn the trouble light on.

Don't let them sell you any parts until you get a diagnosis here.

Can the unknown EGR code cause starting problems.... well maybe, depending on whats wrong. For instance, seeing as how the EGR system uses engine vacuum to sense whats going on & to operate some of the EGR system components, a leaking vacuum switching valve, or EGR valve diaphragm, gasket, or loose vacuum line to one of the EGR system components, could cause an uncalculated for air leak & thus if it's bad enough, maybe lean out the air/fuel mixture beyond the computers ability to have it's actuators compensate for the vacuum leak & thus cause starting or driveability problems.

So you can see a number of things can cause a starting problem & you may have more than one problem, so trouble code clues sure can help us zero in on the likely culprit.

Let us know what fresh code numbers are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for responding, the check engine light is on, the last time we had it ran it said that the fuel was lean and that it was the egr valve (but not the one we had replaced). however when they had run it at the shop (when we had them check the fuel pump to make sure it was still good after it was replaced) they said they had found a code that said something about the anti theft system and "disable engine". That had never turned up on the check at autozone. I am going to leave work (given a can get the car started:eek:) and get the autozone to run it for codes again and will re-post them here. I'm hoping i can find a soultion to this problem today so i can work on getting it fixed.

I should have the code posted within 1 hour or so.

Thanks again,
Rosie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Ok. Here is what I have.... The car didn't want to start when I got out there however I finally did get it to start.. They checked my battery at autozone and did say I needed a new battery. So I could see this causing my starting issues however would the cause my car to not fully start all the time to where it try's to idle at 1/2 rpm and and shake and pop?

Otherwise I did get three codes on the scan p0401, p0174 and p0171. Any new thoughts

Thanks
Rosie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,473 Posts
Ok good feedback response & on getting us fresh trouble code numbers.

P0171 = system too lean cyl bank 1
P0174 = system too lean cyl bank 2
P0401 = insufficient exhaust gas flow detected.

The first two codes maybe suggest a vacuum leak somewhere, or maybe a fuel delivery problem.

The EGR code suggests the EGR valve isn't opening enough to provide enough exhaust gas feedback to the engine, so the computer isn't happy. This is usually caused by an acting out Differential Pressure Feedback EGR, (DPFE) sensor. BUT since you also have lean codes for both cylinder banks, you need to have the EGR system components & their interconnecting Vacuum lines checked. The EGR system components include the DPFE sensor, the computer operated vacuum switching valve, that routes control vacuum to the EGR valve diaphragm under command from the computer, to have the EGR valve open & all of their interconnecting vacuum lines.
If any of the EGR system components, or their interconnecting vacuum lines are damaged, loose fitting & leaking, disconnected, or misrouted after the EGR valve was replaced, they'll cause mischief.

As I suggested above the two problems may be associated, or they may be separate problems.

On starting the engine, what happens if you turn the ignition switch from OFF to Run, (Not the start position, don't crank the engine), several times, say 5-6 times, listening for the fuel pump to run for 2 seconds & turn off each time, THEN go to start, to have the starter crank the engine???? Will it then immediately start & run????

Was a new fuel filter installed when the fuel pump was replaced????
BTW which engine do you have in the Sable??? EDIT: Woops I see you've listed the DOHC engine in your signature!!

Good idea to have the electrical system checked out.
With all of the engine cranking you've done, to get it started, the battery state of charge (SOC) is likely to be down, especially if you haven't driven it very far, say for at least half an hour after each lengthly cranking period, so the alternator can put back what was drained out on the long cranking time. If so, disconnect the battery B- cable & hook up a battery charger to bring it up to a full SOC, Then have the battery load tested again, Before you buy a new one.

A bunch more thoughts for pondering, let us know what you find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,581 Posts
Rose, someone needs to remove the black corrugated air hose and then the throttle body it connects to. Behind the throttle body gasket is a c-shaped channel that runs to the egr valve. This needs to be thoroughly cleaned of the oily carbon deposits with throttle body spray cleaner, small screwdriver and/or baling wire (esp. the top left portion of the c as it is the tunnel running to the egr valve and the notches at the base). I would also remove/clean egr valve at this time. While youre there, i would replace the dpfe sensor (egr backpressure sensor) below and to the right of the throttle body with a borg-warner unit from advance auto or oreilly. Part#egr155. The cleaning of the passageway and replacing the dpfe will rid you of the po401 code. Again, while you have the throttle body removed, change the pcv valve and its u-shaped hose (probably collapsed and/or leaking causing your po171-174 lean codes). If the pcv hose is not faulty, start looking for other bad vacuum hoses and/or leaks that are causing your lean codes. Probably be a good idea to clean the maf sensor on the air tube with crc maf spray cleaner also. Good luck. And yes, replace that bad battery, lol!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,473 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,581 Posts
Thanks for the link, pawpaw! I knew Dan had a pic up somewhere. Rose, bottom left of the pic is the pcv valve and its hose i was referring to sitting atop the valve running to the uim (upper intake manifold). Dpfe sensor is not pictured, but is located behind and to the right of the tb (throttle body) when installed. Iirc, 00greenlx has a pic of dpfe sensor somewhere recently? Egr valve is on the left in that pic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Now will the Egr issues cause the car to not start At all?? While I would love to clear that code and correct the issue however now I am just worried about getting it running. I have been told that these codes shouldnt prevent the car from starting. The fuel pump is working and runs when the car is set to the run position and engine is rotating when trying to start however it won't fire over. We did replace the battery and did the spark plugs and wires today but are now at a standstill on what to do next. Is there anyway for it to be the crankshaft sensor even if we r now getting a code for that? Also the last time we had it at the shop they said it was pulling a security code and something about disable engine.... Does anyone know what could cause that? And if it could disable my engine from starting?
Any help is greatly appreciated... I am leaving my guy to work on it in the morning while I hitch a ride to work... We called two shops by my house to see if they could get the car in but they were both booked this week and are closed on Monday. I have no clue what to do next and am getting low on funds.

Thanks
Rosie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,581 Posts
Dunno, ive never had a code displayed with a faulty ckp (crankshaft position sensor). I would guess that or a pats (security) problem. Your present 3 codes wouldnt keep the car from starting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,365 Posts
Buy an inexpensive spark tester and see if you have spark coming from the front coil pack. If you do, then it's not the crankshaft sensor. Beyond that you'll need to invest in a decent scantool to see what the PCM is seeing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So I just called the ford dealership and he asked me if me theft light blinks. It does when I don't have the key in it and turned to the run position. He tells me that it sounds like it could be my immobilizer and that it would be $65 to dx the car. does this could like it could be the problem? Does anyone have any knowledge About the security systems?

Thanks
Rosie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,473 Posts
Now will the Egr issues cause the car to not start At all?? While I would love to clear that code and correct the issue however now I am just worried about getting it running. I have been told that these codes shouldnt prevent the car from starting. The fuel pump is working and runs when the car is set to the run position and engine is rotating when trying to start however it won't fire over. We did replace the battery and did the spark plugs and wires today but are now at a standstill on what to do next. Is there anyway for it to be the crankshaft sensor even if we r now getting a code for that? Also the last time we had it at the shop they said it was pulling a security code and something about disable engine.... Does anyone know what could cause that? And if it could disable my engine from starting?
Any help is greatly appreciated... I am leaving my guy to work on it in the morning while I hitch a ride to work... We called two shops by my house to see if they could get the car in but they were both booked this week and are closed on Monday. I have no clue what to do next and am getting low on funds.

Thanks
Rosie
As I posted above, it depends on whats wrong with the EGR system, if it's figuring in on the no/delayed start problem.

OK, so you han hear the fuel pump run for a couple of seconds & shut off when you go from off to run.

When you go from off to run with the ignition switch 3-4 times, Then crank the engine, will it immediately fire & run????? If not, then you likely have a fuel delivery problem on the slow/no start condition. If it'll immediately start & run, then look to a clogged fuel filter, fuel line restriction problem, or fuel pump voltage drop, or fuel pressure regulator problem. So do a fuel pressure & fuel delivery versus time, test & post the numbers.

Could the anit-theft system figure in, yup it sure could, IF the engine won't start at all now, so post All of the security trouble codes they got.

If it's just slow to start, look for a fuel delivery, or weak or no spark problem.

SO, was the fuel filter replaced when the new fuel pump was installed?????
Has a fuel pressure & delivery rate versus time test been done????? I know you said the fuel pump is new, but that doesn't automatically earn it a pass, I've seen plenty of bad new parts, right out of the box!!!!! Make the pump prove itself.

BTW Don't throw any more parts at the problem, unless you have a positive confirmation on a trouble shoot.

More thoughts for consideration, keep us posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The car won't start after putting into run a few times and the trying to turn it over. We. Haunt been able to get it started again since Monday. A new fuel filter was installed when the pump was installed. We had the pump tested a couple of months after it was put on because it starting doing the pop and shudder ever now and again which was what happened when the pump went out. Havent checked the fuel pressure vs fuel delivery we dont have a pressure tester but are looking into possible getting one. The scan I got done at autozone only returned the previous codes, however the person the said that there Machines wouldnt pick up the cdes for security issues....I am going off of what came up when the shop had retested the fuel pump. I called the shop and he remembers the car I. Fact he asked if it was the sable that liked to run good then bad and then good again. He said he wouldn't know how to by pass the security settings. Last time he said he did cleR the codes. Was able to find someone I work with who's other half works at a ford dealership and he is going to come look at the car tonight
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,473 Posts
OK, so the fuel filter was replaced & now it won't start at all, even when you cycle the ignition switch from off to run 3-4 times, before going to start to have the starter motor crank the engine.

Seeing as how it takes air, fuel compression & spark to make em run, your missing one or more of those things.

SO, you need to check for spark & fuel pressure. You can get a fuel pressure gauge at Harbor Freight for about $20 & you'll need to seal the hose theads to the gauge with plumbers PTFE ribbon dope to prevent it from leaking, I know this because I bought one last fall to test my Taurus fuel pressure.

The spark can be easily, quickly & safely tested with an induction type timing light.

At what point in this saga did you get the security codes???? Was it after the battery was just repaced, or was it earlier????

If the battery was disconnected with the ignition switch on, it can trigger the PATS anti-theft system.

I've read some where, I think on this forum, that it can be reset by cycling the ignition switch from off to run & back to off a number of times, something like 35-40 times as I remember. I'll look in my Taurus & Ranger favorites, I think I saved the PATS link there.

Or in the meantime you could try a search on this forum for how to reset the PATS system, if someone doesn't answer up right away on how to reset it.

So check fuel pressure, spark, & make sure you have B+ going to the fuel injectors with the ignition switch set to the run position.
Check for blown fuses in the under hood power distribution box, or in cabin fuse panel & see if you can find out how to reset the security system.

A bunch more thoughts for consideration, let us know how it goes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,473 Posts
Forgot to ask, what was the crank sensor trouble code number????
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hi All,
I just cured my 171-174 errors and low idle after warm up on my 2000 Sable Duratec. There is a vacuum hose coming from the bottom of throttle body (it appears to be a heater type hose ) and passes near the thermostat. pn YF1Z*6A664*AB $26. at dealer. Hope this helps someone.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top