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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys, thanks for reading.

I'm attempting to install a Hydrogen generator in my car to increase fuel economy but one of the problems is the O2 sensors. Since typically HHO generators increase the amount of oxygen in the exhaust the car obviously sees this as a lean condition. The PCM then commands more fuel and I lose mileage...

Anyways to the point, Im trying to increase the signal of the O2 sensor to the PCM and Im very familiar with electronics, but I need to know one of two peices of information to design a way to adjust the signal. Either the resistance to ground inside the PCM or the O2 sensors resistance at a given output. Or if someone could tell me its safe to use a multimeter to test one of the two, I know some O2 sensors will fail when the resistance is checked and some won't, and I'd really rather not fry my PCM.

Thank you for any help in advance and I'll be happy to post results and how to set up a system once I've finshed research and my prototype.
 

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O2

Hey guys, thanks for reading.

I'm attempting to install a Hydrogen generator in my car to increase fuel economy but one of the problems is the O2 sensors. Since typically HHO generators increase the amount of oxygen in the exhaust the car obviously sees this as a lean condition. The PCM then commands more fuel and I lose mileage...

Anyways to the point, Im trying to increase the signal of the O2 sensor to the PCM and Im very familiar with electronics, but I need to know one of two peices of information to design a way to adjust the signal. Either the resistance to ground inside the PCM or the O2 sensors resistance at a given output. Or if someone could tell me its safe to use a multimeter to test one of the two, I know some O2 sensors will fail when the resistance is checked and some won't, and I'd really rather not fry my PCM.

Thank you for any help in advance and I'll be happy to post results and how to set up a system once I've finshed research and my prototype.
Could check facts, but as I remember, O2 sensor generates a voltage between 1.0 and 0.0. In use the control does not run in the center, but runs back and forth from one to the other as there is no range, only, one or zero. The control system has a coarse and fine tune and at least 2, O2 sensors per bank.

You could measure the voltage with a scrap one and a propane torch. I have seen it done on TV but never tried it. Measuring would need to be done by a high impedence digital meter.

Of course, I might be wrong and my memory is not all that good.;)

-chart-
 

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First off, brown gas does not increase mileage. The gas breaks the hydrogena nd oxygen, and then allows the uncombined hydrogen and oxygen to recombine in a volatile mix. If you are attempting to do this STOP NOW. This is dangerous, and is based on bogus science. Nothing comes for free, and the energy input to crack the water into brown gas far exceeds the energy content of the gas. Furthermore,t eh volumes needed are great, and the volumes you can generate in a mobile system are miniscule.

Here is issue number two, there is no adjustment needed. The O2 sensor reading with and without the browns gas is the same. The O2 sensor reads only unburned free oxygen, and browns gas burns completely, leaving no free oxygen from the gas itself.

My experience with HHO generators is that they create all kinds of drivability problems, and in the experimental Honda we dealt with, it yielded the same fuel economy as the car did unmodified. In the experimental Taurus, the car lost 7 mpg and cracked the intake manifold when the engine backfired.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
First off, brown gas does not increase mileage. The gas breaks the hydrogena nd oxygen, and then allows the uncombined hydrogen and oxygen to recombine in a volatile mix. If you are attempting to do this STOP NOW. This is dangerous, and is based on bogus science. Nothing comes for free, and the energy input to crack the water into brown gas far exceeds the energy content of the gas. Furthermore,t eh volumes needed are great, and the volumes you can generate in a mobile system are miniscule.

Here is issue number two, there is no adjustment needed. The O2 sensor reading with and without the browns gas is the same. The O2 sensor reads only unburned free oxygen, and browns gas burns completely, leaving no free oxygen from the gas itself.

My experience with HHO generators is that they create all kinds of drivability problems, and in the experimental Honda we dealt with, it yielded the same fuel economy as the car did unmodified. In the experimental Taurus, the car lost 7 mpg and cracked the intake manifold when the engine backfired.
I have had just two one pint mason jars setup in my car drawing just 4-5 amps. My idle was so smooth I barely noticed the engine running but my mileage dropped 3 mpg. We tested the setup at my school with a 5 gas exhaust anaylzer and my exhaust gas increased from 2-3% Oxygen to 4-5% oxygen. And of course theres always someone somebody knows, but my teacher who gave me this idea drives an Infiniti G35 gained 20 mpg with just two 1 quart mason jars. I really didn't want to debate the validity of this process, Im just trying to make it work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Could check facts, but as I remember, O2 sensor generates a voltage between 1.0 and 0.0. In use the control does not run in the center, but runs back and forth from one to the other as there is no range, only, one or zero. The control system has a coarse and fine tune and at least 2, O2 sensors per bank.

You could measure the voltage with a scrap one and a propane torch. I have seen it done on TV but never tried it. Measuring would need to be done by a high impedence digital meter.

Of course, I might be wrong and my memory is not all that good.;)

-chart-
I do know some Oxygen sensors create thier own voltage and some adjust a refrence, I believe our sensors adjust a 5-volt refrence from looking at a wiring drigram (01 taurus btw). There is a Gray/Red wire connecting all four O2 sensors, the TPS, the DPFE, the OSS, the CKP, the Fuel tank pressure sensor, the ECT and the MAF. This wire has been spliced up from pin 91 on the PCM mutiple times to all these other sensors.
 

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If your teacher gave you this idea, why doesn't your teacher help you make it work. I've done experiments with this stuff, its power draw far exceeds any gains you get. I find your teachers claims to be downright bogus, what science is behind it. What test have been done to verify the accuracy of the measurements, where are the relative controls.

As stated, we did experiments with a 2000 Taurus, at the end of the day, the biggest problem is that the computer does not understand HHO or browns gas, and it messes stuff up so badly that the engine struggles to even run. Without reprogramming the computer, I don't think you can make it work.

For the record, to produce a constant 4-5 amps at 12 volts is a constant 60 watt load. This increases the load the alternator has to handle. While it may not seem like much, the amount of HHO you can produce with such a miniscule amount of power is also miniscule, and produces less power than the the 60 watt load.

At the end of the day, if HHO is burning correctly, the oxygen level in the exhaust will remain unchanged versus running just regular air. The reason you are having problems is because the HHO is displacing normal air, causing the computer to detect less air going into the engine, causing the computer to inject less fuel, which results in a lean condition, resulting in the increased oxygen contained in the exhaust your computer is getting false information. Any economy gains are a result of the lean condition you have created.
 

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There is NO WAY that 20 mpg was gained!!!!! Total BS!!!!!! With 2 jars producing the gas, the amouny produced is minimal, and likely not enough to make a measurable difference in mpg. You need to look at energy balance, and the energy contained in masses or volumes of various fuels. As noted above, there is this pesky thing called conservation of energy, and that principle cant be violated.
 

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I was still looking to build one because of gas prices. But theres two sides to this, it works or it doesn't. I don't know what to believe lol.

My friend [though I don't know how accountable he is] has an old 87 F-150. He claimed not only better mpg's, but horsepower as well. Assuming the engine is running lean for the mpg gain, theres no way he got more hp out of it.

I'm just going to continue my research. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hydrogen has a little over three times the energy density of pure gasoline, not the 90% mix of gas and ethanol we typically get which is even less, which is why you see a power gain using these devices and the need for gasoline drops significantly. If you dont believe a regular automobile can run on hydrogen mythbusters did an episode on these devices, though they left out the catalyst, and ran a car as a test on bottled commercial hydrogen. And it worked, until it backfired which is why my setup includes around 7-8 feet of vacuum tubing as a backfire arrestor.

And Im really not worried about current draw, I've had a stereo system near 1000 watts in this car with no issues. So far the optimal setup Ive seen was a six pack set up in series parallel to so that each jar got 6 volts and drew around 11 amps total.

And if you wish to see the history of research into HHO generators go to water4gas.com and download the free documents and read over the "Water-Fuel Dream Or Science" document. It refrences research by NASA, SAE, and other researchers. It also includes a list of US and International patents for HHO technology and a timeline of Hydrogen technology.

Regardless of opinions on the subject, I only wish to know if it is safe to isolate the PCM and check the resistance to ground on the O2 sensor circuit with a DMM.
 

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Call me a skeptic, but I never trust the "research papers" that sites that are trying to sell you junk science experiments for hundreds of dollars.

Want to double your mileage AND power and not look like you are running a mobile distillery or meth lab under your hood? Hell it was even designed and patented by the biggest cheat in NASCAR history, Henry 'Smokey' Yunick. The adiabatic engine design. To simplify it, fuel is superheated and compressed prior to being introduced into the combustion chamber, heated beyond the point of autoignition, yet it wouldn't ignite despite the laws of thermodynamics. In whole, the engine operated at much higher combustion temperatures. The result was doubled mileage and nearly doubled power output of all the donor engines. Yunick converted a 3-cylinder Geo, a 4-cylinder Pontiac Fiero and a DeLorean to this design prior to his death. They are still running today and in the hands of private collectors, the Fiero appeared on Horsepower TV about two years ago for a dyno run.

Engineers from Ford and GM came to his shop and tested the engine, it ran flawlessly. They tried to reproduce the design and failed on all accounts.

Why don't you try a CNG conversion instead if you want to try to beat the gas prices. Right now in my area, the gallon of gas CNG equivalent is selling for $1.65.
 

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Hydrogen has a little over three times the energy density of pure gasoline, not the 90% mix of gas and ethanol we typically get which is even less, which is why you see a power gain using these devices and the need for gasoline drops significantly. If you dont believe a regular automobile can run on hydrogen mythbusters did an episode on these devices, though they left out the catalyst, and ran a car as a test on bottled commercial hydrogen. And it worked, until it backfired which is why my setup includes around 7-8 feet of vacuum tubing as a backfire arrestor.

And Im really not worried about current draw, I've had a stereo system near 1000 watts in this car with no issues. So far the optimal setup Ive seen was a six pack set up in series parallel to so that each jar got 6 volts and drew around 11 amps total.

And if you wish to see the history of research into HHO generators go to water4gas.com and download the free documents and read over the "Water-Fuel Dream Or Science" document. It refrences research by NASA, SAE, and other researchers. It also includes a list of US and International patents for HHO technology and a timeline of Hydrogen technology.

Regardless of opinions on the subject, I only wish to know if it is safe to isolate the PCM and check the resistance to ground on the O2 sensor circuit with a DMM.
BS. Hydrogen might contain fair amount of energy, but HHO does not. Sure it contains a lot of energy, but to separate it from water also requires a lot of energy. How much HHO are you really producing? One liter of pure hydrogen (yours is not pure by the way) will produce about 9.54 btus per liter. or 270 btus per cubic foot. HHO produces about 1.45 btus per liter.

First off, how much HHO does your unit produce? The amount we were able to produce with extremely efficient HHO generators was far shy of what we needed. Just from a theory standpoint, to run a 1 liter engine off pure HHO, you need 90 liters per minute. I doubt you produce even one liter per hour.

I'm sorry you are not getting the answers you want. What more do you want us to tell you. The scientific theory behind this stuff just doesn't measure up. Here is an experiment for you to try. Hook up an HHO generator to a battery, hook a generator up to the same battery. Run the generator up to the HHO as its fuel source. If this process worked, you would be able to run the engine until the the water ran out and was entirely converted to HHO. The problem is, the HHO takes far more energy to produce than it contains.

Now people claim that it is altering the way the fuel atomizes and that produces the efficiency that is reported. Ok, the same has been said of using acetone, and numerous other additives. Guess what, the efficiency is a function of the BTU content of the fuel. Gasoline has a lot of BTUs, HHO does not. You need a lot of HHO to produce very little energy. Gasoline atomizes just fine, and the HHO is not going to help it atomize further.

HHO has an extremely low octane. It ignites easily, the chances of it withstanding a 10:1 compression without spontaneously detonating is nil. So if anything, it will make your engine ping and detonate, and might even blow something up, assuming you have enough energy to even do that.

Sorry, the truth hurts, and your teacher is a lier. I have a copy of the book Water 4 Gas, guess what, yes the references are legitimate, yes you can produce HHO, and yes you can do work with it. But the energy input far exceeds the energy output. So no, you cannot run a car off it, at least not with its own internal power generation.

In my estimation, HHO is a good fuel to make a torch or flame when electricity and water are available, but no hydrocarbon fuels. Beyond that, its just a novelty.
 

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Ive ran a 96 intreped with hydrogen as the sole fuel source, if you are refering to tunning an electrolyzer in your car first its dangerous becasue the hydrogen and ogygen are mixed stoich right out of hte box. second your car WILL NOT read a lean condition. it burns the hydrogen and ogyxen and basically recombines them into H2O. you will have increased moisture in your exhause and unless youre running stainless this can lead to rust problems. the mileage increase you get will be negligble. though power may be up noticably. ive built several electrolyzers for a few different cars id be glad to email you some schematics and some tips for optimizing the system.
 

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he will increase his mileage by maybe 2 percent. it 1.2 kilowats of electricity to produce 1 kilowatt of H. but those formulas dont take into acount for the fact that he will also be using the oxygen prodeced. he will be getting 1 kilowatt out per kilowatt put in. basically using hte electrical system of the car to help push it a bit harder, the only real way to get advantage from it is to use underdrive pulleys with it. how much he will produce depends on how many plates are in his cell, how closely they are spaced and wether or not he uses distilled water or tap water aslo wether or not he uses any electrolyte.
 

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just read the last post before my first. you abviously have been reading crap off the net and have no actual `experience in the matter. hydrogen alone doesnt contain that much energy. the stoich mix/ most powerfull mix is believe it or not HHO guess what hes gonna be producing. gesh. people like you are the reason the petroleum companies have the hold on us that they do.
ill bet you didnt even know that if you pulse a spark plug at the resonant frequency of it can split the HHO apart in the combustion chamber. you can then reburn the HHO in some beneficial fashion i guess, problem the system is very complicated. a man whos name escapes me managed to build the system and ran it on a dune buggy, tried to patent it so he could sell kits but died of mesterious causes shortly after. the patent was never awarded the research never washed up anywhere.
the hydrogen systems work in spite of what the nay sayers may say to combat the arguement. HHO is also the most abundant energy source.... covers 2/3rds of the earths surface. that makes it free and the systems are the cost.
and for those who start in about crackpot conspiracy theories dont forget tesla.
the wireless transmission of electricity, wont work right? yet a modified version of his idea exhists.... wireless chargers for ipod anyone?
dont knock the kid for being brave enough to try something new.
as for the "you wont be producing pure H" statement umm...... pure ogygen doesnt burn. pure hydrogen doesnt burn. you mix them thereby making them both impure and you get a pretty blue flame. let him do it, the worse that could happen is he doesnt like the result and abandons the idea. i hate people that try to talk other people out of trying some odd experiment. the world doesnt advance because of peopl like you.
 

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I laugh at these posts. :lol2:

This is one of the "secrets" of the web that car companies still have to discover? Those dumb engineers from Toyota, ford etc still do not know how to maximize fuel economy?

Hydrogen has a little over three times the energy density of pure gasoline
So? It has to be generated by electricity which is coming from your alternator. So in an ideal world you would get 100% of THAT energy back when you burn it, nothing more. And the fact that you will not even get close to 100% efficiency, will already explain that you are going to lose milage.

So yes, burning hydrogen gas gives a crap load of energy, however electrolysing water costs that same crap load of energy. Simpel thermodynamics.

Good luck turning your car into Hindenburg 2.0. That tube is not going to stop this from backfiring.
 

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Good luck turning your car into Hindenburg 2.0. That tube is not going to stop this from backfiring.
+1
You need a PCV valve separating it, so WHEN it back fires, it will just blow the line off and not ignite the gas in the cells.

And @ intrepid:
Your points are valid, but the way you get them across offends me, and I'm not the one they're addressed to. FYI, hydrogen contains a ridiculous amount of energy. The biggest source of energy that we can lift our fingers into the sky and point to is the sun. Fusion. 2H -> He + a TON of energy. I just don't think they're working on cold fusion for cars right now.

Jay Leno said it best, that all daily drivers need to be electric, to reduce emissions and save precious gasoline for those of us with performance car toys. (The hydrogen cell electric that Honda's working on, not the stupid battery powered ones).
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Thank you Intrepid for at least giving me a chance,

But to back up my car reading a lean condition with the HHO generator Ive driven with my scan tool hooked up reading O2 sensor voltage with and without the HHO generator on on the same downhill run. This hill is steep enough that at closed throttle you can accelerate from 60 to 65 mph. So W/O the HHO generator my car ran a flat .1V reading the whole way down, but with it read a flat 0 V signal and no, this isnt a dead O2 sensor, it reads just fine at cruise and was replaced shortly after I changed my headgasket because of coolant damage about 20K miles ago. And of course before both runs I disconnected the battery's negative terminal to reset the PCM's adaptive fuel tables. My assumption, though I can't prove it w/o a 5 gas analyzer during the run, is that there is more 02 in the exhaust and my car at cruise will see this as leaner than normal.

And to KhanTyranitar,

Please show me a little respect by not calling my teacher a liar. I can accept you not believing him, but please don't call him a liar without driving his car for a week or so to see its mileage.
And what I am attempting to produce follows this chemical formula

2H20 -> 2H2 + 02

Or pure hydrogen and oxygen in a perfect mixture. Now some of the water will be boiled because of the heat but with an effecient design, and a manner in which to cool the jars plenty of HHO can be produced.

And Napoleon1981,

Most car's alternators are 30 - 40% stronger than the maximum eletrical load the vehicle could possibly create under normal circumstances, which is why my old 1000 watt system was fine in my car. And how much of a load could your alternator's pulley possibly put on the crank without locking up (Its gotta be less than the A/C). The alternator is producing the max output all the time, your voltage regulator saves your electronics from frying on a daily basis by reducing output.

And to everybody else,

Could somebody please answer my initial question, and stop telling me it won't work. Im young, dumb, and stubborn, I'll keep trying until I see results, or run out of money for the project no matter how many people on here tell me I'm wrong.
 

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You original question was answered. You are running lean because your computer doesn't understand the design, you have 2 options, either reprogram the computer, or switch everything back to stock. If you mess with the sensor readings, all you can do is reduce voltage. Lower voltage will read even leaner, making your problem worse.

Trust me, I've already been involved in an experiment involving a Taurus. And I'm not hear to be politically correct, so I have no qualms about calling your teacher a liar. I already know that HHO results in a fuel economy decrease do to the fact you are wasting energy. That is a fact. The proposed economy claims defy the laws of physics. Its just not possible. My guess is those claims are emerging from an incorrectly calibrated on board computer that is displaying fuel economy estimates. And momentary estimates do not count, only long term averages.

You want real results, generate just hydrogen, without the oxygen, store it, and generate it from a green source, like hydroelectric, solar, wind, or nuclear. If you generate it by any other source, you are just wasting gasoline and other fossil fuels. If you make HHO, you are creating one of the most explosive gases, it has everything it needs to self ignite in the perfect ratio. The fact that you haven't blown anything up however is a testament to its low density as a fuel, you need lots of it, and the generator you are using produces very little of it.

Reading the O2 voltage is not a good way to determine anything anyway, what is your long term fuel trim. That will tell you a lot more than the sensor voltage will.

I guess you are going to keep going till you run out of money, because what you are trying to do is not possible. You can not increase fuel economy by using that fuel to generate a different fuel with thermodynamic losses involved. That is akin to blowing on your own sails to move a ship, it doesn't work.

There are lots of other things that can yield much better results, though they will be small. The first thing is to increase the engines actual efficiency. about 1/3 of the energy you burn is wasted as heat through the exhaust. If you can reclaim that heat for a practical purpose, that is efficiency. Another third of the heat is lost through the engine block itself. Again, capture the heat and use it for a practical purpose. Lastly, you loose more energy through internal and drivetrain friction. Reduce friction, you get better economy. That is much harder to do, because the stock bearings are already excellent, but you can switch to lighter oils. The gains here are small though because the original setup was already excellent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Hey guys, thanks for reading.

I'm attempting to install a Hydrogen generator in my car to increase fuel economy but one of the problems is the O2 sensors. Since typically HHO generators increase the amount of oxygen in the exhaust the car obviously sees this as a lean condition. The PCM then commands more fuel and I lose mileage...

Anyways to the point, Im trying to increase the signal of the O2 sensor to the PCM and Im very familiar with electronics, but I need to know one of two peices of information to design a way to adjust the signal. Either the resistance to ground inside the PCM or the O2 sensors resistance at a given output. Or if someone could tell me its safe to use a multimeter to test one of the two, I know some O2 sensors will fail when the resistance is checked and some won't, and I'd really rather not fry my PCM.

Thank you for any help in advance and I'll be happy to post results and how to set up a system once I've finshed research and my prototype.
My initial question,

"Either the resistance to ground inside the PCM or the O2 sensors resistance at a given output. Or if someone could tell me its safe to use a multimeter to test one of the two"

Ignore the part about the O2 sensors resistance, after further research into them our O2 sensors are the galvanic battery type as Chartmaker suggested.

So what I wanted to know was the resistance value of the dropping resistor inside the PCM for the O2 sensors, or if it would be safe to test it myself with a high quality multimemter.

Im using a variable gain amplifer circuit to increase the O2 sensors signal, Not resistors to decrease it.
 
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