Taurus Car Club of America : Ford Taurus Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Howdy everyone, I'm in love with my new 2011 Taurus SEL, there's just one thing I wanted to fact check prior to taking the vehicle in for warranty service (I bought it 2 days ago).

When moderately breaking at speeds >40-50mph my steering wheel shakes back and forth to a degree that it caught my eye. I don't notice any sound associated with this, and the ride is very smooth otherwise. When I say it shakes, I mean the steering wheel makes pretty quick 10 degree left/right rotations, not like a violent vibration. My old 1996 Honda Accord doesn't do this so I figured my $30k 2011 Taurus shouldn't either.

I have a natural distrust of everything related to dealers and service, how can I ensure this gets fixed properly. I am not an automotive expert, but I can read up about a particular mechanism or issue if need be.

Any and all advice is appreciated.

Should I take a 10 second video of it and post it on youtube, would that help?

Thanks everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,851 Posts
Sure sounds like a rotor problem. Test it when you get it back. If its not right, take it back. Eventually theyll get it right, lol!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Thanks guys, I will be sure to mention both of those issues to the dealer and have them look into it. The car currently has 260 miles on it, I can't believe there's already an issue. I will post the results of the warranty service, thanks again!
 

·
Cake monster
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
Hello and welcome to the forums. I would suspect brake issues. It's probably easily solvable, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Your Honda probably has been through many brake jobs, it's not uncommon to have a defective part from the factory at all; especially with brake parts. I would expect the dealer to correct the issue for free, even if it needs a $3,500+ transmission (just an example). So trusting them shouldn't be a huge issue.

If you have access to a camera and you still have the issue, post the video up for us to watch, visual diagnosis is always helpful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
If you are noticing it while breaking then I would say the brakes. If it was the tires then it should do it without any application of the brake pedal. The dealer should have no problem finding it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Brandon Ford, the dealer, corrected the issue in under three hours. They said the front rotors had to be "resurfaced" because they were "way out of specs." I have no idea what that means but braking no longer induces a jostling of the steering wheel. What annoys me is that the dealer who sold this to me, Heritage Ford, had an employee pick up the car from another dealer 3+ hours away, had another employ deliver it to me the next day, and neither of them noticed or cared to report a very obvious issue. Oh well, it's fixed, and it is a week old tomorrow! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys. I know I'll be lurking here a while reading the forums about leather cleaning and exterior detailing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Brandon Ford, the dealer, corrected the issue in under three hours. They said the front rotors had to be "resurfaced" because they were "way out of specs." I have no idea what that means but braking no longer induces a jostling of the steering wheel. What annoys me is that the dealer who sold this to me, Heritage Ford, had an employee pick up the car from another dealer 3+ hours away, had another employ deliver it to me the next day, and neither of them noticed or cared to report a very obvious issue. Oh well, it's fixed, and it is a week old tomorrow! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys. I know I'll be lurking here a while reading the forums about leather cleaning and exterior detailing.
I think those employees need to lose their job. Give the dealer ship a call back and let them know how irresponsible their employees are and fax them my resume :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
No way

Brandon Ford, the dealer, corrected the issue in under three hours. They said the front rotors had to be "resurfaced" because they were "way out of specs." I have no idea what that means but braking no longer induces a jostling of the steering wheel. What annoys me is that the dealer who sold this to me, Heritage Ford, had an employee pick up the car from another dealer 3+ hours away, had another employ deliver it to me the next day, and neither of them noticed or cared to report a very obvious issue. Oh well, it's fixed, and it is a week old tomorrow! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys. I know I'll be lurking here a while reading the forums about leather cleaning and exterior detailing.
That's not right, Rotors are a specified thickness, the material that they removed has reduced that thickness. This may be important when you have your first brake job and they tell you that your rotors are already at their design limit, and you will need to buy new rotors.
Tell the dealership to REPLACE the rotors with OEM NEW parts, that will save you the difference between machining (resurfacing) the rotors and the cost of replacements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
117 Posts
Do Not "Machine" Ford Rotors

I'm with Shocharly on this one!

"Machining" or "Turning" the Rotors reduces the usable lifespan (Greatly).
[The "Clowns" who "Delivery Drove" your New Taurus HAD NO IDEA HOW
to properly "Bed In" the pads and rotors...AND I'll bet you DtoD they
Warped the Brand New Rotors!]
DO Not Allow the "Stealer" to get away with forcing Warped/Turned Rotors
on you! Demand to speak In Person with the Area Ford Rep!
[H*ll,If I had a Brand New Taurus and a "Stealer" tried this on me...
The next person I'd be shouting at would be Billy Ford's Butler.]

Ford is Notorious for "Un-Turnable" rotors.
(I.E. inexpensive, lightweight metal that almost Warps as you Machine it.)
That's why the rotors are so reasonably priced!

(I mean we're not talking Brembo or Akebono here...)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
200 Posts
I'm with Shocharly on this one!

"Machining" or "Turning" the Rotors reduces the usable lifespan (Greatly).
[The "Clowns" who "Delivery Drove" your New Taurus HAD NO IDEA HOW
to properly "Bed In" the pads and rotors...AND I'll bet you DtoD they
Warped the Brand New Rotors!]
DO Not Allow the "Stealer" to get away with forcing Warped/Turned Rotors
on you! Demand to speak In Person with the Area Ford Rep!
[H*ll,If I had a Brand New Taurus and a "Stealer" tried this on me...
The next person I'd be shouting at would be Billy Ford's Butler.]

Ford is Notorious for "Un-Turnable" rotors.
(I.E. inexpensive, lightweight metal that almost Warps as you Machine it.)
That's why the rotors are so reasonably priced!

(I mean we're not talking Brembo or Akebono here...)
The dealer should have put 2 new rotors on the vehicle and sent the bad rotors to Ford Motor Co. - Supplier Quality Assurance for out of spec. parts. followup.

That is why I like to test drive my new vehicle before taking delivery of it and paying for it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
OK, so go back to the dealer and say "I've been informed that resurfacing the rotors is an insufficient repair and that your actions have now reduced the serviceable life of the rotors, I want you to install 2 new front rotors."

I can't reference what i've been told from an internet forum, what other ammo do I have?

I appreciate your insights.
 

·
Cake monster
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
OK, so go back to the dealer and say "I've been informed that resurfacing the rotors is an insufficient repair and that your actions have now reduced the serviceable life of the rotors, I want you to install 2 new front rotors."

I can't reference what i've been told from an internet forum, what other ammo do I have?

I appreciate your insights.
I would go back and say something like:

"I was thinking about it, and I'm curious as to why you didn't replace the rotors entirely? I purchased a new car and expected it to have all new parts, not ones that are out of spec or have a reduced life span because of the fact that they had material removed off of them, I think they should be replaced instead."

That's not a bad place to start. I half expected them to toss a new set of rotors on, then call it a day. I guess the dealer is cheap? They're not expensive.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,578 Posts
You guys are over-reacting about this rotor issue.

You're thinking that it's only the thickness of a rotor that gets measured, but there's also lateral runout, as well as high/low spots. If the rotor wasn't properly seasoned, it's possible that pad material built up on the rotor surface, then cooled, and formed a high spot.

When they 'resurfaced' the rotor, they likely just removed them, gave them a quick grind to get rid of any high spots, and reinstalled. This was caused by what you people would call 'warped' rotors. In reality, there is no such thing as 'warped' rotors, but as I said before, pad material can build up and form high spots, which would cause what you were feeling.

As for 'reduced rotor life,' that's a non-issue. If there was any reduction in life, it was, at most, a couple hundred miles. It's certainly no reason to become a pain to a dealership. Remember, in the future, if there's a big issue, a dealership will be more willing to work with you if you have a good relationship with them. While it's purely anecdotal, a buddy of mine had a transmission replaced in his Excursion at 100k miles for $250, BECAUSE he had a good relationship with the dealer. I bought my Mustang from this dealer, and they've always been good to me, so I don't nickel and dime them for stupid stuff like this.

JR
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
117 Posts
Your Ford,Your Pleasure

GSP32,


"The only fix for extensive uneven deposits involves dismounting the discs and having them Blanchard ground - not expensive, but inconvenient at best. A newly ground disc will require the same sort of bedding in process as a new disc. The trouble with this procedure is that if the grinding does not remove all of the cementite inclusions, as the disc wears the hard cementite will stand proud of the relatively soft disc and the thermal spiral starts over again. Unfortunately, the cementite is invisible to the naked eye.
Taking time to properly bed your braking system pays big dividends but, as with most sins, a repeat of the behavior that caused the trouble will bring it right back."

From:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml





"Eliminating warped rotors forever!


May 07 '06

The Bottom Line Go with high quality ceramic pads, save money by going with OEM quality throw-away rotors, and eliminate a lot of disc brake woes.

Warpage
It seems to be the bane of many a car owner: You made a panic stop; now every time you press the brake pedal, it vibrates as your car shudders and shakes to a stop. Your rotors are warped. Again. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just get rotors that would never warp? Well, you can...and the secret isn't in the rotors, but rather in the pads.

How disc brakes work
First, we need to identify the cause of the problem, and the root of the problem lies in how disc brakes work. Remember the 10 speed bicycle you rode as a kid? You'd squeeze the brake lever on the handlebars, and two rubber pads would close in on the wheel rim, bringing your bike to a stop. Disc brakes in a car work in much the same manner; except instead of rubber pads closing in on the rim, you have brake pads closing in on a rotor, which you can think of as a smaller wheel within your bigger wheel. Whether or not you have ABS, all disc brakes work in this manner. The rotor is made out of iron, while the pads can be made from various different materials. When the pads close in on the rotor, friction is created. It's this friction that slows the car down. A by-product of that friction is heat. A great deal of heat is generated in even the softest, slowest of stops. In a panic stop or in hard braking, it may be possible for the rotors to get red hot. Sometimes, it can get so hot that the brake fluid can start to boil!

Heat - the enemy
It's this intense heat that causes rotors to warp. With conventional and even metallic brake pads, the brake pads and rotor rub against each other; the pads make the rotor hotter, while the rotor makes the pads hotter. This keeps going back and forth between the pads and the rotors until they get intensely hot. Then, when the wheel finally stops turning, you have a piping hot pad sitting in one place of the rotor. What happens then is the rest of the rotor cools off a lot quicker than the spot where the hot pads are sitting. This is where the warpage comes from. Another danger is brake fade; the pads and rotor can get so intensely hot in hard braking, their ability to generate friction is greatly reduced.

The solution - ceramics
Ceramics have amazing properties when it comes to heat. They can withstand extremely high temperatures without distorting; more importantly, ceramic is very good at not transferring heat. Ceramic tiles are used on the bottom of the space shuttle to protect it from burning up on re-entry. Now, you can get brake pads that use ceramic material.

Ceramic brake pads aren't made entirely of ceramics; they're a blend of materials, including ceramic. They also usually contain copper fibers; those of you who cook understand that copper is very good at transmitting heat. What this gives you is: a) A pad that does not get very hot at all, and b) A pad that can wick heat away from the rotors by way of those copper fibers. By eliminating heat, you eliminate the problem of brake fade. You also eliminate the problem of warped rotors.

What about the rotors?
Many people have tried various types of rotors; some are drilled, some are slotted. Some people buy "Premium" rotors. The problem is, they're all still made out of iron. Drilling and slotting only reduces the amount of surface area, which can hurt braking performance unless you go with bigger rotors and pads. It still doesn't change the properties of the iron, and can lead to other problems such as premature cracking. Consider too that the original purpose for drilling holes in brake rotors was to permit the brake pads to outgas as they heated up. This was a problem with organic brake pads manufactured circa 1960 on performance cars driven at high altitudes. Today's modern brake pads do not outgas.

By using ceramic pads, you won't even need to use the "Premium" rotors. The purpose of premium rotors is that they can be "Turned" (have the surface shaved off of them) when they become pitted and/or warped. Since modern ceramic pads are so good at keeping rotor temperatures down, there is no reason to use anything better than the OEM quality throw-away low-cost rotors!

Added benefit: Longer life, cleaner rims, no more noise!
Heat is what kills conventional brake pads and rotors. By staying cooler, ceramic pads used with ordinary throw-away rotors will last quite a bit longer. The dust produced is less, and is a lot lighter in colour, which means your front rims aren't going to look dirty with all that nasty brake dust. Finally, the materials used in ceramic pads is such that the squeal generated is at a frequency too high for humans to hear. Quiet brakes, cleaner rims (or hubcaps), longer life...and no more warped rotors. With the added safety of eliminating the dreaded brake fade.

Conclusion
If you just scrolled on down to the bottom to get the bottom line, here it is: Next time you need to service your disc brakes, go ahead with conventional OEM quality throw-away rotors, and use high quality ceramic pads. You'll be saving money, and possibly your life, in the long run.
 

·
Cake monster
Joined
·
1,584 Posts
You guys are over-reacting about this rotor issue.

You're thinking that it's only the thickness of a rotor that gets measured, but there's also lateral runout, as well as high/low spots. If the rotor wasn't properly seasoned, it's possible that pad material built up on the rotor surface, then cooled, and formed a high spot.

When they 'resurfaced' the rotor, they likely just removed them, gave them a quick grind to get rid of any high spots, and reinstalled. This was caused by what you people would call 'warped' rotors. In reality, there is no such thing as 'warped' rotors, but as I said before, pad material can build up and form high spots, which would cause what you were feeling.

As for 'reduced rotor life,' that's a non-issue. If there was any reduction in life, it was, at most, a couple hundred miles. It's certainly no reason to become a pain to a dealership. Remember, in the future, if there's a big issue, a dealership will be more willing to work with you if you have a good relationship with them. While it's purely anecdotal, a buddy of mine had a transmission replaced in his Excursion at 100k miles for $250, BECAUSE he had a good relationship with the dealer. I bought my Mustang from this dealer, and they've always been good to me, so I don't nickel and dime them for stupid stuff like this.

JR
Great reply.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,578 Posts
GSP32,


"The only fix for extensive uneven deposits involves dismounting the discs and having them Blanchard ground - not expensive, but inconvenient at best. A newly ground disc will require the same sort of bedding in process as a new disc. The trouble with this procedure is that if the grinding does not remove all of the cementite inclusions, as the disc wears the hard cementite will stand proud of the relatively soft disc and the thermal spiral starts over again. Unfortunately, the cementite is invisible to the naked eye.
Taking time to properly bed your braking system pays big dividends but, as with most sins, a repeat of the behavior that caused the trouble will bring it right back."

From:
StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades





"Eliminating warped rotors forever!


May 07 '06

The Bottom Line Go with high quality ceramic pads, save money by going with OEM quality throw-away rotors, and eliminate a lot of disc brake woes.

Warpage
It seems to be the bane of many a car owner: You made a panic stop; now every time you press the brake pedal, it vibrates as your car shudders and shakes to a stop. Your rotors are warped. Again. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just get rotors that would never warp? Well, you can...and the secret isn't in the rotors, but rather in the pads.

How disc brakes work
First, we need to identify the cause of the problem, and the root of the problem lies in how disc brakes work. Remember the 10 speed bicycle you rode as a kid? You'd squeeze the brake lever on the handlebars, and two rubber pads would close in on the wheel rim, bringing your bike to a stop. Disc brakes in a car work in much the same manner; except instead of rubber pads closing in on the rim, you have brake pads closing in on a rotor, which you can think of as a smaller wheel within your bigger wheel. Whether or not you have ABS, all disc brakes work in this manner. The rotor is made out of iron, while the pads can be made from various different materials. When the pads close in on the rotor, friction is created. It's this friction that slows the car down. A by-product of that friction is heat. A great deal of heat is generated in even the softest, slowest of stops. In a panic stop or in hard braking, it may be possible for the rotors to get red hot. Sometimes, it can get so hot that the brake fluid can start to boil!

Heat - the enemy
It's this intense heat that causes rotors to warp. With conventional and even metallic brake pads, the brake pads and rotor rub against each other; the pads make the rotor hotter, while the rotor makes the pads hotter. This keeps going back and forth between the pads and the rotors until they get intensely hot. Then, when the wheel finally stops turning, you have a piping hot pad sitting in one place of the rotor. What happens then is the rest of the rotor cools off a lot quicker than the spot where the hot pads are sitting. This is where the warpage comes from. Another danger is brake fade; the pads and rotor can get so intensely hot in hard braking, their ability to generate friction is greatly reduced.

The solution - ceramics
Ceramics have amazing properties when it comes to heat. They can withstand extremely high temperatures without distorting; more importantly, ceramic is very good at not transferring heat. Ceramic tiles are used on the bottom of the space shuttle to protect it from burning up on re-entry. Now, you can get brake pads that use ceramic material.

Ceramic brake pads aren't made entirely of ceramics; they're a blend of materials, including ceramic. They also usually contain copper fibers; those of you who cook understand that copper is very good at transmitting heat. What this gives you is: a) A pad that does not get very hot at all, and b) A pad that can wick heat away from the rotors by way of those copper fibers. By eliminating heat, you eliminate the problem of brake fade. You also eliminate the problem of warped rotors.

What about the rotors?
Many people have tried various types of rotors; some are drilled, some are slotted. Some people buy "Premium" rotors. The problem is, they're all still made out of iron. Drilling and slotting only reduces the amount of surface area, which can hurt braking performance unless you go with bigger rotors and pads. It still doesn't change the properties of the iron, and can lead to other problems such as premature cracking. Consider too that the original purpose for drilling holes in brake rotors was to permit the brake pads to outgas as they heated up. This was a problem with organic brake pads manufactured circa 1960 on performance cars driven at high altitudes. Today's modern brake pads do not outgas.

By using ceramic pads, you won't even need to use the "Premium" rotors. The purpose of premium rotors is that they can be "Turned" (have the surface shaved off of them) when they become pitted and/or warped. Since modern ceramic pads are so good at keeping rotor temperatures down, there is no reason to use anything better than the OEM quality throw-away low-cost rotors!

Added benefit: Longer life, cleaner rims, no more noise!
Heat is what kills conventional brake pads and rotors. By staying cooler, ceramic pads used with ordinary throw-away rotors will last quite a bit longer. The dust produced is less, and is a lot lighter in colour, which means your front rims aren't going to look dirty with all that nasty brake dust. Finally, the materials used in ceramic pads is such that the squeal generated is at a frequency too high for humans to hear. Quiet brakes, cleaner rims (or hubcaps), longer life...and no more warped rotors. With the added safety of eliminating the dreaded brake fade.

Conclusion
If you just scrolled on down to the bottom to get the bottom line, here it is: Next time you need to service your disc brakes, go ahead with conventional OEM quality throw-away rotors, and use high quality ceramic pads. You'll be saving money, and possibly your life, in the long run.
A lot of that is StopTech trying to sell more ceramic pads. Yes, ceramic pads are good for some things, like quiet stopping on a grocery getter, but carbon metallics are much better pads, even if they are louder and dustier. Sure, you need to clean your rims more, but they'll stop better, and if you utilize proper seasoning and bedding procedures, you'll eliminate or minimize the 'warped' rotor feeling, aka, pad material build-up.

JR
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top