[Crazy_Brys_Auto]

Has anyone tried to mix EITHER Nitromethane, or alcohol with regular gasoline yet? I've heard of this, but you need to rejet the carburator. Yes yes, i know theres no carb... just wondering if the ECM will compensate for the added amount of fuel needed to run without creating a lean condition. I'm looking at running R/C car fuel as a mix (say 3:1 with regular gasoline), and the R/C fuel being 20% Nitro (5%lube and 75% Methanol). For offroad use only, were racing on a 1/4 dirt oval with a 98 Vulcan SE.
Will I have to go to a 19lb injector size?

 

[mikehawk]

If I were you, I'd test it out on someone else's car before putting it in mine.

 

[-qaz-]

Interesting idea, probably not a good thing to test out though unless you got a flex fuel. The computer knows how much gas to mix with how much air, it messure how much air is coming in and adjusts the ammount of gas. I think what will happen as a minimum is you'll start throwing codes, since the computer's reading and adjustments wont give a output its expecting.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by qaz-@Mar 7 2004, 11:30 PM
Interesting idea, probably not a good thing to test out though unless you got a flex fuel. The computer knows how much gas to mix with how much air, it messure how much air is coming in and adjusts the ammount of gas. I think what will happen as a minimum is you'll start throwing codes, since the computer's reading and adjustments wont give a output its expecting.

I wouldn't try it w/o the Flex Fuel engine, but that's just me.

 

[Tman]

it's just not a good idea to use any of those type of fuels in a taurus it will just cause more problems and harm then you would see gains for. The knock sensor will retard the timing thus making you lose hp. Plus the mixture will burn hotter causing possible internal engine damage

 

[Darkandroid90Vulcan]

if i member corectly (and i do) the user amnual for my g1 says i can uase alc. in feul

 

[fantacmet]

WHOA SLOW DOWN A SEC PLEASE I do NOT want you to fry your car on this.

Do not (can't stress NOT enough) try R/C Nitromethane in your real car. One my my extended hobbies has been in the R/C industry, both car and plane. The formulation for R/C fuel is WAY different then any other form of nitromethane. you may or may not blow your engine apart with this stuff, becuase you have fuel injection, but it's not good for your injection system, and there will be no performance gains from it. Not to mention the stuff is terribly expensive. One of the car rags did an article on this within the past year. They covered the R/C fuel topic quite a bit, which is fairly in depth, but I won't go into that kind of depth here. There are many other additives to R/C fuel and each one is vastly different from the rest. The only thing you will get from the manufacturers as far as ingredients go is, nitro content, and then type of oil used, synthetic, castor, or both. Trying an Ethenol Alcahol(natural alcahold) might be ok if proper steps and precautions are taken, but using the R/C nitromethane(a synthetic alcahol) is not a good idea. Sorry for the seemingly bad part at the top, if it seemed rude, I just don't want to see someone goof their engine up, and end up in my shoes. As my shoes are what I can drive right now.

Michael

 

[shoz123]

Almost all the gas in Illinois is 10% ethanol. This has a lower BTU content per pound than straight gas. No advantage to using alcohol if getting more HP is the goal.

 

[dant98]

Why to they run alchohol injection in funny car applications and the like? Is it more stable then high octane gas w/ a higher burn temperature? One thing I seem to have come to an understanding of is that the fuel type and fuel system along is not what defines your power, but rather they support your power needs. You modify the intake, exhaust, cams, etc. and advance the timing appropriatly for your power needs, then you choose a fuel tipe that won't detonate before spark and a fuel system that can provide enough fuel to prevent a lean condition.

It sounds to me what you really want to do is do sone intake and exhaust work, then tune for racing fuel and get that spark advance way up there. You might need to run copper plugs to keep from melting them.

-Dan

 

[fantacmet]

The reason for alcahol in racing apps is because the incredably high compression like 18:1 and up they run they need the alcahol.

Michael

 

[93taurusSX]

The alcohol in racing applications is like the water injection discussed in another thread; its there to lower the cylinder temps and keep the engine from pinging.

 

[Crazy_Brys_Auto]

Hey thank for all the input all...
Let me clear myself up a bit, and see if any opinions change.
The only things i know about Nitromethane are...
Nitro is a slow burning fuel, unlike petrol. Top fuel cars run anywhere between 40 to 50 degrees BTDC. I don't understand why it would trigger detonation, causing retardation?.? mabey im just confussed...
I'm not thinking on running straight RC fuel either. Just as an additive. Im looking at 40:1 petrol/RC Nitro. ?.? Ideas, still disadvise.
Im not Real concerned about woofing an engine, Ive got 6 or 7 vulcans laying around so...

I'm also looking at installing an air/fuel mixture guage along with an exhaust gas temp guage. Nitromethane's optimum fuel air mixture ratio is 6:1, unlike petrols 14:1, so I can burn more fuel, OR in effect, use less air for the same amount of power...meaning I need less porting polishing for my intent.
What are the main differences between Nitromethane and the 40% or 25% RC fuels. I understand they are 40% (25% respectivly) Nitro, 5% oil, and 55% Ethanol. Each of these shouldn't hurt an internal combustion engine, but will they mix with a petrolium product?
Trust me Im not ignoring ANYONES advise (Im just a persistant bast#$%rd)

And Michael, no offence taken at all

 

[Crazy_Brys_Auto]

Nother question, why would Nitro cause higher temps. Nitro burns at 550 degrees, unlike Petrols 2250 degrees? Ever grab the exuast manifold of a pure nitro cars exaust after a 1/4 drag run? You can grab it 2 1/2 feet away from the engine, thats how cool they run. Ever grab the manifold of a petrols car? I havent, but I dont think Ill try.
Not tring to knock anyone, I guess i just don't grasp the concept.

 

[shoz123]

I guess you really need to figure out the BTU content of a gallon of nitro and compare that with gasoline to see if there is any advantage. Then there is specific gravity and viscosity to consider.

 

[mobiuslogic]

I'll throw my 2 cents in here....

1) Don't try running nitromethane of any variety in your Taurus. Because it's an alcohol fuel, it can withstand unbelievable compression ratios, almost on the order of diesel fuel. Drag racers take full advantage of this and get the compression as high as possible. However, running it in your vulcan engine will likely do nothing, and actually may cause more problems as the slower burn rate may burn up the exhaust valves when they open and may also cause problems with the cats, but I don't know about that one. Plus the alcohol will cause problems.....

2) Depending on the energy content and molecular structure of Nitromethane, the engine will likely be injecting very lean. I highly doubt it will be anywhere near the EECs expected stoiciometric ratio as it will be thinking it's all gasoline. None-the-less, the O2 sensors, the MAF, and the EEC will have no idea what's going on and start throwing codes.

3) Alcohol fuels are corrosive. Any alcohol fuels. They will eat the inside of the gas tank as well as the rubber of the fuel lines and corrode the engine as well from the inside. SOME alcohol in fuel is ok (10% is the max for regular pump gas). It's used to oxygenate the fuel, so it burns cleaner, and the alcohol content is not enough to cause problems. Higher content though and you can start clogging injectors and fuel lines.

4) Unless you have a Flex Fuel engine (FFV) don't even think about it. The FFV has a capacitive sensor that detects the amount of alcohol in the fuel, and adjusts injection and ignition accordingly. This is why I don't buy Union 76 here in CA. They use ethyl alcohol as their oxygenate rather than MTBE. And so my car gets less gas mileage because ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. Also, I've got different fuel lines and a different gas tank and a slew of other engine parts too that will not corrode with the alcohol fuel, because in parts of the midwest, Ethanol (or E85) is available, which is 85% ethyl alcohol and 15% gasoline) and the E85 will destroy a car that's not capable of handling it, where as the FFV is designed specifically to handle it. But, if you had an FFV, then you'd be ok with alcohol fuels...but....

All in all, you won't see any bonus what-so-ever. Unless you're running forced induction or shave the heads to increase the CR, the extra octane of the alcohol will do nothing (pure 100% ethyl alcohol has an octane of 113 and can handle at maximum about a 16:1 CR, just FYI :evil_grin: ), and the increased CR won't be able to run on pump gas either without loads of detonation. You'd also need an aftermarket Knock sensor to handle the increased CR, as the vulcan does not have a knock sensor.

Unless you've got a FFV, your really SOL on this one.

-mobiuslogic

 

[mikehawk]

Well, if you've got 6 or 7 vulcans laying around then WTF, go for it. Let us know if it helps or hurts. Discussing theories on an internet forum is one thing, but field testing is another.

 

[tflander2003]

where my parents work has pure nitromethane, it is mixed with castor oil and other crap for model airplanes, i wouldn't try anything like that, go find a old chevy and try it on that cause their really nicely crappy to junk them

 

[Crazy_Brys_Auto]

Hmm.... no knock sensor on a vulcan...that throws a wrench in my plans..

Like the chevy idea....got a celebrity thats a good donor. i work in a plating company...boss is gonna get a gallon of Nitromethane. I think were gonna run a gallon of 20:1. If she lives, next comes 10 to one. IF it lives, well try 5:1. If 5:1 is ok, well try it out 10:1 on a set up vulcan.
Mobiuslogic... Very good points. Thanx. I do have a completly fabricated fuel system (except for fuel rails and injectors) though. On your #2 point, wouldnt the ECM compensate for this (considering the fuel pump & injectors can keep up? The MAF is before any fuel is injected, so i doubt (dont KNOW, just assuming ) that would fubar the idea, but I am agreeing on the O2. I dont know if it would sniff somthing (not knowing what!!) and throw codes faster than and SHO...
I'm not tring to be a pain in the arse, but Ive run 15:1 in a carb equipt vehicle, and there was a HELL of a noticible difference (don't ask what it was... you'll laugh). Anyway, unfortunatly I think you guys are talking me out of this on my Taurii, but who cares about the celebrity!!!

 

[mobiuslogic]

I think the biggest problem would be the compatability of the fuel lines and tank with the nitromethane. Unless you used a fuel tank and lines that are specifically able to handle alcohol fuel, then the nitro will slowly eat them up. You can use lines that are rated for alcohol with gasoline, but you can use lines that are ONLY rated for gasoline with alcohol. Does that make sense?

The problem with the MAF/EEC/O2 would be that the EEC would be expecting a particular reading from the O2 given the MAF reading and injection, and too much nitro may throw that off too far in that the EEC wouldn't be sure who to listen too, the MAF and incoming air or the O2 sensor and the exhaust/emissions. I'm pretty sure it would listen to the O2 sensor more to avoid too much emissions, and I seem to remember reading on my 2000 that if the MAF goes out of whack or out of spec, it will disregard it completely and use the O2 sensors only for fuel mixing. Our EEC program should be pretty similiar, they are both OBD-II and the EEC-V computer, so it likely has the same or similiar logic. However, because the EEC will read the O2 sensors and the MAF both in spec, it may think the injectors are bad because the nitro with it's lower energy content will cause a lean(er) condition than expected and as such the EEC will think the injectors are not pulsing correctly and as such giving to little fuel, causing the lean.

I don't know, I just wouldn't do it if I were you. What was the difference with the carb vehicle? We could all use a good chuckle I'm sure.

-mobiuslogic

EDIT: Actually, the biggest problem is that the EEC has no idea that there is nitromethane in the mix. If it knew, then it could compensate for it and know what to expect from the MAF and O2 sensors (like the FFV can tell exactly what % of the fuel is ethanol). It's like a pinata at a birthday party. It's going to be a total hit or miss because the EEC is blinded by the Nitromethane. It may get in the ballpark if there is very very little Nitro, but I think regardless, it won't fully know what's going and will throw codes to voice it's opposition. The EEC can only see what it's sensors tell it, and there is no sensor for nitromethane, and as such will throw off the reading from the other sensor (like the MAF and O2, and possibly the TPS (throttle position sensor). Keep in mind this is also a computer and math is perfect. Things may be in spec to not throw a code (like just a little bit off with a tiny bit of Nitro), but the slightest thing could throw it out of spec enough to throw a code, and it'll never be dead on either, even if it's not off enough to throw a code.

 

[SHOMAN]

just run AVGAS been around dirt tracks for years, find good racing fuel and go for it