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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Lots of HID hatred and love is expressed here and everywhere as i've noticed. I happen to be a lover. I have been very intrigued by legalities and whatnot that over the past months I have been doing some serious research. Here are my answers.

HID's are legal as bulbs. It all depends on what you do with them. If they are in a projector and below 8000k and above the 4000k area they are completely legal. In a reflector housing it's not a good idea to have them because of careless use. It is still ok to have them in certain housings of some cars because of reflectivity being better. The taurus, meh. not so much. Other cars its usually ok and wont get in trouble in any way.

quick story: I got pulled over the other night for a rejection inspection sticker and the cop came to the window and said "you know you have a rejection sticker? also your headlights are aftermarket." I said "so? aftermarket doesn't mean illegal, my radio is aftermarket that doesn't mean it's illegal. i also didn't fail inspection for headlights. just for suspension (front right tie rod.)" he said "ok license and registration please" and walked away. he came back with a ticket for my passenger not having a seatbelt on, and a $25 for failed inspection. nothing further about lights, or "unapproved lighting" or whatever you call it. (btw I have 8000k HID's in my stock/centennial housings.)

Projectors produce a neat cutoff line to reduce glare and also spread light perfectly and evenly. I have recently discovered these new HID lights called D2R HID lights which are meant for reflector housings. They are still HID's that are 300% brighter than standard halogens, but they provide a cutoff line. I haven't seen any in action, but I assume they still scatter light poorly in a taurus. other housings like on a charger would be better. here's a photo of a D2R HID bulb.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-31825660550277_2175_22560992

Now D2R's are what should be used for reflector housings it seems. These are newly discovered things to me and probably most other people. D2S bulbs are what most people buy because they are the standard, and what belong in projectors.

To me it looks like an HID bulb with matte stickers on them to create a cutoff line. Once again I'm not sure how it would look in a taurus housing, but it is designed to not put light upwards in the housing to reflect up.

EDIT: D2R in a taurus would require custom work, because D2R is a bulb type. The taurus takes 9007. but let the info sink in anyway.
 

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Good info, most of it is already known. But good info none the less. I haven't heard of them D2R bubs Ill have to look into them , although the pic you posted seems to look like a lot like a standard D2S bulb with some tape on it. Im not debating the bulbs like I said I've never heard of them but.... Even if they produce a cut off how would they work in stock housings. Because the stack bulb's light reflects off of the shield right in front of the bulb, bounces back and hits the rear of the housing then reflects out. I don't see hoe a cutoff would help in this instance. Oh yeah and the reason they are illegal is because people don't aim them properly, that is all.
 

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Sorry man.... Everythign your saying here is basically incorrect but to a degree.

ANY AFTERMARKET LIGHTING is 100% illegal in Massachusetts. I had 8000k hids, AUDI led style strips and 8000k white underglow for nearly 3 years and never got pulled over for any of it except one time on the mass pike where i got a warning. but local cops never cared at all! and i failed with 8000ks for inspection so i just swapped halogens before i went problem solved.

and as far as the ds2s go they are not made for a certain headlight housing, the housing is made for the ds2. and that strip on the bulbs decrease glare, so basically if you take an hid from a escalade or a maxima or any vehicle with out projector, it will look like crap in anything else.

I helped a friend do a 2003 maxima hid conversion in a 95 maxima with similar headlights but the output was terrible.
 

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Oh Yeah, and as far people selling them on the net goes... If you look closely in their disclaimers it says "for off road use only" hints why they can still sell them legally. But yeah as long as they are aimed right and are 4k to 8k (color wise) you'll be fine. We all know what is the best solution to HIDs but lets please not get into that again.
 

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The NHTSA made changes to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 back in 2001, this Standard outlined lighting standards and regulations for all motor vehicles in operation in North America (US, Canada and Mexico) and ANY retrofit (Whether for HIR, HID, LED, friggin' laser beams, or whatnot) is illegal.

 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Like I said. I've gone through the trouble. Talked to my inspection guy, multiple cops and read the mass and us laws. the only thing written in the law is that the lights have to be white, and they define white as yellow tint, blue tint or people tint on the white. Nothing about types of bulbs. Yeah their unsafe in reflectors, but a long as they're "white" they're legal. Yeah the d2r is new to me too. And I passed inspection with 8000k! My guy does inspections hardcore cuz his station had been in trouble for passing stuff. Also I just wanted to make a write up that had as much info as possible in it. And btw the "white" speech comes from the NHTSA. And intimidator, I've done the same thing. Aimed properly, no issues. Yeah, not looking to start an argument about this again lol but just to give some solid info to ppl with questions.
 

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90% the crap we do to our vehicles are illegal. Its all about the loop holes. Like the HIDs the loop hole is Have a color 4k-8k and aim them and your golden. Or how about underglow kit. There are actually 2 loop holes for underglow. If you can see the tubes you can have any color except emergency colors (red, blue, orange, green) But if you cant see the bulbs you can have any color you want. Also you can't drive around with them on, you have to be parked. Hints why i hooked mine up to come on when you open the door and off when you close them. OR how about catalytic converters.... some people like to hollow them out and re-weld them and run straight pipe thought them. They usually can fool an inspector if done correctly.But yeah man like I said.... lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
90% the crap we do to our vehicles are illegal. Its all about the loop holes. Like the HIDs the loop hole is Have a color 4k-8k and aim them and your golden. Or how about underglow kit. There are actually 2 loop holes for underglow. If you can see the tubes you can have any color except emergency colors (red, blue, orange, green) But if you cant see the bulbs you can have any color you want. Also you can't drive around with them on, you have to be parked. Hints why i hooked mine up to come on when you open the door and off when you close them. OR how about catalytic converters.... some people like to hollow them out and re-weld them and run straight pipe thought them. They usually can fool an inspector if done correctly.But yeah man like I said.... lol
Exactly! I hate mass. Everything is illegal.
 

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Good info, most of it is already known. But good info none the less. I haven't heard of them D2R bubs Ill have to look into them , although the pic you posted seems to look like a lot like a standard D2S bulb with some tape on it. Im not debating the bulbs like I said I've never heard of them but.... Even if they produce a cut off how would they work in stock housings. Because the stack bulb's light reflects off of the shield right in front of the bulb, bounces back and hits the rear of the housing then reflects out. I don't see hoe a cutoff would help in this instance. Oh yeah and the reason they are illegal is because people don't aim them properly, that is all.
The reason its illegal is because of the differences between a projector and a halogen reflector it actually isn't any more possible aim them properly than it is for a nearsighted person to wear a farsighted persons glasses and have their vision improve. HIDs get scattered a lot into the foreground while casting less light down the road where it needs to be when they are used with a halogen reflector. No amount of aiming can help this, because to correct it you would need to be able to change the shape of the reflector.

If you are going to convert to HIDs, at least do it properly and install a projector.

The reasons this is illegal is headlights are SAFETY devices. If it were not so, cars would not even have headlights. The whole purpose it to properly illuminate the road in a manner that does not have an adverse effect on the driver or other drivers on the road, under a wide variety of conditions. Tampering with the headlights without regard for the safety of others is and should be illegal. As far as I'm concerned, it is like anything else. You can crank your headphones up and blow your own eardrums out till you are deaf. But if you disturb your neighbors, well, then there is a problem.

Before arguing more on this point, take some time out and get some education on the subject. There are good sources of information that present the FACTS, not some ignorant opinion. Simple fact, HIDs put into halogen reflectors will always scatter the light, with elevated levels of light in the foreground, and less light at a distance. The change in the color of the light and increased foreground light gives a false perception of improved visibility. This is because the reflectors are in fact aimed at specific parts of the halogen filament. HIDs always have a different shape and orientation versus halogens, and for this reason, HIDs will always scatter. If you put halogens into a projector, you would have the same problem.

www.danielsternlighting.com has excellent information on the subject.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/HID.html

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html



http://youtu.be/yVuSSdZNsZw
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Ok dude. Not starting an argument again. We all know this. U act like there so bad. They're really not. U act like I'm shooting people point blank in the face. Just to shut u up, bulbs don't have to be a certain type of gas inside. So if its white, its legal. Like I've said before, I've been blinder more by silverados with silverstars than ANY car with Hids. The headlights are simply aimed and set too high. And until u take hids and put them in ur taurus and learn how to aim them, don't sass me about it. Every hid guy on here can agree. They can be aimed properly. There just a lot of ppl out there who don't care to aim them right and that is who you see out there blinding u. Like I've also said, if I put 4300k in mine and drive behind u with properly aimed, u would have no idea they're hids. Stop creating an argument. I posted this for the point of throwing out the facts. And if you notice, I mentioned projectors is the proper way, and putting them in reflectors is a bad idea. But you can get away with it.
 

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I have no desire to argue or call anybody out, but at the end of the day any non-DOT approved lighting system is illegal in all 50 states. Period. Just because you don't get caught or hassled and pass a safety inspection doesn't make it legal. Even if you keep the stock DOT approved halogen headlight housing, the second you put in a non-type specific bulb it is no longer a DOT approved system and therefore illegal. There's no if's, and's or but's to this.

Color has little to do with the safety issues of HID's in halogen housings. Can you get a safe and "legal" beam pattern out of the stock housing with HID bulbs even when properly aimed? Maybe, maybe not. Does anyone here have the resources and access to the extremely expensive testing facilities to find out for sure? Probably not. Are you getting the true benefits of an HID system by putting HID bulbs in a halogen housing? Absolutely not.

If I see a car with HID's in halogen housings I could care less as long as it's not causing a safety issue. The problem is that 90% of them that pass me going the other way do induce glare, even when properly aimed. Whether this is the case with a given bulb in a Taurus I don't know. If not, great. I can guarantee you though that if someone with an HID conversion ever causes me to be in an accident, they'll be eating Ramen three times a day for a decade after my attorney gets done with them.
 

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"(g) The lens of each replaceable bulb headlamp shall bear permanent
marking in front of each replaceable light source with which it is
equipped that states the HB Type, if the light source is designed to
conform to subparagraphs (a) through (e) of paragraph S7.7, or the bulb
marking/ designation provided in compliance with Section VIII of
appendix A of part 564, if the light source is designed to conform to
subparagraph (g) of paragraph S.7.7 No marking need be provided if the
only replaceable light source in the headlamp is Type HB1."

A cop is not a reliable source of information on the law, let alone one as obscure as NHTSA laws. They are not going to care about that as much as if you had a rolling meth lab in your car or an exposed firearm, but it does not make it any less illegal.
 

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1 - If you are going to convert to HIDs, at least do it properly and install a projector.

2- Tampering with the headlights without regard for the safety of others is and should be illegal. As far as I'm concerned, it is like anything else.

3- You can crank your headphones up and blow your own eardrums out till you are deaf. But if you disturb your neighbors, well, then there is a problem.

4- Before arguing more on this point, take some time out and get some education on the subject. There are good sources of information that present the FACTS, not some ignorant opinion. Simple fact, HIDs put into halogen reflectors will always scatter the light, with elevated levels of light in the foreground, and less light at a distance. The change in the color of the light and increased foreground light gives a false perception of improved visibility. This is because the reflectors are in fact aimed at specific parts of the halogen filament. HIDs always have a different shape and orientation versus halogens, and for this reason, HIDs will always scatter. If you put halogens into a projector, you would have the same problem.
I erased the non important things in your post. And I'm sorry in advance if you think I'm being short with you, but you kinda called me out..

1 - If you look at my second post you will see that I was referring to this (custom retrofitted projectors). If you look through my past posts on the subject you will see I have never said any retrofit was legal. I have also always been pro-projectors and against halogen housings with hid kits. BUT there are ways to make the output of halogen housing with HID kits better for the driver and the traffic around him/her. As far as the legaltily of the HIDs goes, I stated that most companie's disclaimers state "for off road use only" Which means your not supposed to use them on the road.

2 - Im pretty sure when you go to aim the beams you are expressing a "regard for the safety of others"

3 - LOL, now your trying to take a stab at car audio? Im not sure how old you are but not everyone just cranks the system at a red light to get attention. I've had a system since I was 19 (25 now btw) and I have never done so. Sure I have cranked it up for testing but IF I ever do turn it up, I give my neighbors a heads up. It's called respect which clearly you know nothing about.

4 - Ignorant opinion, huh? Here is a simple FACT for you, wattage determines brightness not color. Temperature of the bulb determines color. Re-aiming the headlight once they're install does in fact help reduce glare. As far as your links go... look at the "9004 hid vs 9004 halogen" The guy CLEARLY didn't know what he was doing. First off he used an xenon bulb rather than the bi-xenon buld he should have. Hints why the HIGH BEAM test failed because it was a LOW BEAM only setup. And the low beam failed because they weren't aimed for 25 feet like they're supposed to be. When he clearly states testing was done at 50ft. If you have never done it then I don't really see why you have an option on the subject. Opions are like ass holes, everyone has one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
DOT approved doesn't mean legal not does it refer to much. There are dot approved hid lights. And also, we take hb5 which is 9007. And the hid bulb type can be 9007. I love when ppl spew crap they don't know. Especially non hid users. Like I said in the first post. Its just for some clear info, and everything was stated properly about projectors and non projectors. and also ur not going to fail inspection or get a ticket from a piece of a paragraph on paper about lights. A cop will be doing that. And as long as its white, it makes no difference what the bulb is. Its legal if its white, and not a spotlight lol. And once again my final point is, ITS LEGAL, IF ITS WHITE. AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR. THERE IS NOTHING THAT DAYS HIGH INTENSITY DISCHARGE LIGHTS ARE ILLEGAL. WHITE. WHITE. WHITE. :).
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
And who gives a crap anyway, its all about fun with ur car. Ur always trying to start crap about hids u guys really need to relax about it. U act like its murder. Its a newer thing that authorities don't give a crap about. So if u have the care to aim them right and use test people in front of you, go ahead and do it and don't worry about them as long as they're white. And what about all those cadillacs that came with stock 6000k lights without projectors in the early 2000's? U gonna go chop their heads off? Relax people. Its a headlight.
 

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DOT approved doesn't mean legal not does it refer to much. There are dot approved hid lights. And also, we take hb5 which is 9007. And the hid bulb type can be 9007. I love when ppl spew crap they don't know. Especially non hid users. Like I said in the first post. Its just for some clear info, and everything was stated properly about projectors and non projectors. and also ur not going to fail inspection or get a ticket from a piece of a paragraph on paper about lights. A cop will be doing that. And as long as its white, it makes no difference what the bulb is. Its legal if its white, and not a spotlight lol. And once again my final point is, ITS LEGAL, IF ITS WHITE. AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR. THERE IS NOTHING THAT DAYS HIGH INTENSITY DISCHARGE LIGHTS ARE ILLEGAL. WHITE. WHITE. WHITE. :).
Relax man. If you read my post I wasn't attacking you or any other HID user. I simply stated the legalities and the fact that a poorly implemented system can be a huge safety risk. By all means, do whatever you like to your car that makes you happy. As long as you're not hurting anyone else, I nor anybody else has the right to tell you what you should and shouldn't do.

As for the legalities, if you don't want to take my word for it that's fine. Do your own research, but read the actual laws and regulations. The opinion of a guy at a testing station or a cop are far from a competent legal opinion. You could fill a large garage with books of all of the federal laws governing motor vehicles in this country. The fact of the matter is that your factory headlights received their DOT certification with Halogen bulbs. Get the certification number off of your factory housings and research it yourself if you don't believe me. Even if you put in a DOT approved Xenon bulb of the same size, you have modified the system from it's approved design and the DOT certification is void. Lighting systems are certified as just that, systems. Just because both parts are certified individually doesn't mean that they are certified together. Using a non-approved system on a public roadway is a violation of federal law. You will probably never be cited for this offense. Cops aren't lawyers or engineers and most states don't even require a high school diploma to become a certified inspector. State laws are typically much less detailed and specific as well. Technically it is illegal though.

If you don't like my opinion that's fine, but please don't insult my intelligence and tell me that I don't know crap. I enjoy a good conversation or even an argument, but there's no reason it can't be done politely. I by no means know everything and I have been corrected many times on this very forum. I will gladly admit when I am wrong. This is an area that I have an intimate knowledge of though. I have a master's degree in mechanical engineering, I've worked in the automotive world for an OE supplier and I have an solid knowledge of federal vehicle regulations as well as experience dealing with the various federal regulatory authorities. Though it's not true in every circumstance, in this case I do know crap.
 

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U act like its murder... Its a headlight.
It might be murder if your stupid HID lights blind the incoming traffic on a 2-lane road. You don't OWN the road.
And yes, it is illegal by federal law and probably all the states. It is a reason why there are technical inspections for cars - it's called public safety.

Your freedom (to do what you want) stops when encroaches other people freedom.

PS: Loud speakers go in there too... Everyone owns a radio in their cars too, we don't need to listen to your music at the stoplight.
 

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DOT approved doesn't mean legal not does it refer to much. There are dot approved hid lights. And also, we take hb5 which is 9007. And the hid bulb type can be 9007. I love when ppl spew crap they don't know. Especially non hid users. Like I said in the first post. Its just for some clear info, and everything was stated properly about projectors and non projectors. and also ur not going to fail inspection or get a ticket from a piece of a paragraph on paper about lights. A cop will be doing that. And as long as its white, it makes no difference what the bulb is. Its legal if its white, and not a spotlight lol. And once again my final point is, ITS LEGAL, IF ITS WHITE. AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR. THERE IS NOTHING THAT DAYS HIGH INTENSITY DISCHARGE LIGHTS ARE ILLEGAL. WHITE. WHITE. WHITE. :).
You know all it takes to DOT certify HID lights?

(From page 260 of the Federal Motor Vehicle Standard 108)

- Name of manufacturer printed on ballast
- Part number printed on ballast
- Rated life of bulb/ballast combo printed on ballast
- High voltage warning printed on the ballast
- The symbol 'DOT'

And you have DOT certified HID lights.

Nothing mentioned about functionality, lumen/candela output, glare, housing or anything. It could be a Chinese dog turd inside the ballast and the wires are actually Twizzlers and the DOT would still certify them.

However, as I originally mentioned, you are retrofitting a different bulb type into a housing that was certified for another. That is illegal. Doesn't matter if the light is white, brown, blue, black.

And honestly, if a cop pulls you over for HIDs, his intention did not stem from an equipment violation, but more from a you fit a certain stereotype and he thinks he can find something a little more substantial to ticket/arrest you.
 
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