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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ford got owned by toyota in 2003 by .3 million vehicles? whos fault is that? I blame ford. Not everyone in the world wants to drive a stupid SUV or a truck which seems to be fords main focus now. They deserve to be #3. maybe this'll be their wake up call and they'll get back to focusing on a more diverse offering of vehicles.

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Mazda is not included in the sales. If they were, Ford would be #2.

Besides, Japanese and American companies report car sales differently. Japan counts registered vehicles, while America counts wholesale. With such a small margin of difference, I would just say they are even. Toyota is certainly not "beating up" Ford.

And you have something wrong with my Explorer, son?

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Ford only owns 30% of Mazda. How does a Mazda sale count as a Ford sale?

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So do they get 1/3 of mazda's sales? How about Land Rover, Jag, Astin Martin, Volvo, etc.?


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Ford owns enough of Mazda for it to be considered a "Ford." If Ford dropped Mazda, Mazda would not survive.

Toyotas sales included sales from Toyota, Lexus, Scion, etc. It also included their brands in Japan, and other countires.

Ford's I believe was just "Ford." It didn't include all their other brands.


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I doubt the numbers are spun in any way. I could totally see ford coming up short compared to toyota. what does toyota have like 1 suv and the rest of their cars are well...CARS. coupes, sedans, sporties the whole deal. Ford needs to learn. i'll post the entire article when i get home. I just read it in the paper i'm at work right now and dont feel like looking it up but if you guys want to, go to www.latimes.com

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569 Posts
Originally posted by XLSuruaT@Jan 24 2004, 04:33 PM
WOO HOOO....go TOYOTA!!!!!

chalk me up for a supercharged scion tc [hopefully]
Ugliest. "Thing". Ever.

Oh, you said Tc. Thank god, that huge box thing their selling as a Van should never exist, and it would make me cry to know that someone who ever owned something as magnificant and curvacious as a Taurus would ever make such a horrible transition

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304 Posts
Originally posted by Twilight@Jan 24 2004, 02:00 PM
Ford only owns 30% of Mazda. How does a Mazda sale count as a Ford sale?
Toyotas 51% ownership of Hyundai and Hino trucks allow them to include those companies total sales. Ford has a controlling interest of Mazda at thirty something percent but the Mazda salws are not counted. Land Rover, Volvo, Jaguar, Astin Martin etc. sales are counted because Ford owns them outright. Toyota is also the number one car seller in the USA according to the article.

Ford has already handled the situation IMHO. Are we forgetting about the entirely new line of vehicles coming out? Freestyle, 500, Futura, Freestar plus all the new Mercury vehicles as well as some new Linconls and all the redesigning Ford is doing. Ford must own more of Mazda than we realize b/c they are using Ford's 3.0L Duratec in the Mazda6 IIRC. Plus there is a new Ford or Mercury, not sure which, that I was reading about that will use Mazda's rotary engine. Just wait til the 04 or 05 numbers come out and I think you'll see a rebound by Ford.

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LOL I remember seeing the Scion Tc. The Turd supercharger for it allows the car to gain a whopping 40 horsepower.

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Toyota has a ton of trucks & suv's too.

Off the top of my head:

4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, Highlander, Sequoia, LandCruiser, & Rav 4. Thats more than Ford has. And Ford has 5 cars and Toyota has 7.

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57 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
pay attention to the part i bolded. Ford pays too much attention to its trucks and SUVs and even the article sights that as the major cause of fords slip to #3.

January 24, 2004 E-mail story Print

Toyota Cuts in Front of Ford as No. 2
Japanese firm's rapid growth shows that even biggest U.S. names are unsafe in global market.

By John O'Dell, Times Staff Writer

Japanese giant Toyota Motor Corp. sped past American corporate icon Ford Motor Co. last year to become the world's second-biggest car company, according to sales figures released Friday.

The ascension marks a major milestone for Toyota, which began as a small weaving factory in 1918, didn't produce its first vehicle until 1935 and as recently as 1966 sold a mere 20,000 cars and trucks in the crucial U.S. auto market.

Its overtaking of Ford — a company that gave birth to the auto industry when it created the first mass-production assembly line nearly a century ago — is a powerful symbol of how even the biggest names in business aren't safe from bruising competition in the global marketplace.

Toyota's preliminary figures show that the Tokyo-based automaker's worldwide retail sales climbed about 10% to 6.78 million in 2003, ousting Ford from the No. 2 spot it held for decades. General Motors Corp., with global sales of more than 8 million cars and pickup trucks, remains firmly in the No. 1 spot it has held for 75 years.

In the eyes of some industry experts, ceding ground to Toyota is a big blow for Ford. Analysts estimate Ford's worldwide retail sales for last year at about 6.4 million units. "Being second in such an important global industry can be an important marketing tool that it has now lost," said Bob Schnorbus, chief economist for J.D. Power & Associates.

But the numbers speak as much to Toyota's rise as they do to Ford's fall.

Toyota Chairman Hiroshi Okuda has set a lofty goal of capturing 15% of the global auto market by early next decade, up from 10% today. To do so, Toyota must continue to snatch business away from traditional American brands as well as Asian and European rivals.

"Toyota is pursuing world domination and doing it successfully," said Gordon Wangers, president of AMCI, an automotive market research firm in Marina del Rey.

In the U.S., Toyota now ranks fourth in passenger vehicle sales and is close to overtaking Chrysler Group for the third spot.

Last year, Toyota captured a company record of 11.2% of the U.S. auto market, where it has been the top-selling import brand since 1975. The Toyota Camry sedan was the top-selling passenger car in the U.S. in 2003 — for the sixth time in seven years — while the company's Lexus line was the most popular luxury brand for the fourth consecutive year.

It is because of this rapid growth that Wall Street now pegs Toyota's total stock value higher than GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler combined.

Despite all that, Toyota contends it is not engaged in a race with the domestic brands.

"Our focus is on customer satisfaction," said Xavier Dominicis, a spokesman for Toyota's import, distribution and marketing arm, Toyota Motor Sales USA, in Torrance. No parties are planned at Toyota's U.S. headquarters for the official announcement Monday of the global sales figures, he said.

In recent decades, Toyota has expanded into all major auto markets and now sells cars in 160 countries, with manufacturing plants in 27 nations. Toyota's sales figures include those of its subsidiaries Hino Motors and Daihatsu Motor Co.

All told, Toyota sold 1.87 million cars and pickup trucks in the U.S. in 2003, just under the 2 million units it sold in Japan. But the U.S. auto market — the world's largest — is the most important for Toyota because it accounts for about 70% of the company's profit.

Ford too has downplayed Toyota's gains.

Chief Executive William Clay Ford Jr., great-grandson of founder Henry Ford, said his company's new focus was on regaining profitability, not hanging on to market share. Last year, Ford posted a $495-million profit after racking up $6.4 billion in losses in 2001 and 2002. Ford's sales figures include its foreign brands Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin.

Although Ford's pickup truck sales, led by the F-150, are strong, the company's passenger car sales continue to slip. As a result, Ford finished the year with a 19.5% U.S. market share, its lowest since Henry Ford was running the company in 1929.

Ford and GM are now refocusing their efforts on passenger cars, a market that Toyota and Honda have dominated in recent years. Meanwhile, the big European and Japanese automakers — Toyota among them — have begun attacking the domestics' hold on the profitable pickup and SUV markets.

Toyota also has taken a leadership position in the so-called green car market with its innovative Prius sedan and a pair of upcoming SUVs, all powered by a hybrid electric-and-gas engine with dramatically improved fuel economy.

The carmaker's unlikely start dates to 1933, when Kiichiro Toyoda set up a small auto manufacturing unit in his father's Toyoda Automatic Loom Works.

Although the family's name is Toyoda, the company's was changed to Toyota for simplified pronunciation and because, in Japan, eight is a lucky number and it takes eight strokes of a calligrapher's pen to write "Toyota" in one popular form of Japanese script.

Until the end of World War II, Toyota Motor Co. primarily built trucks for the Japanese Imperial Army. The firm survived the war with its major manufacturing facilities intact — Japan surrendered just before a scheduled U.S. bombing raid on the Toyota factory complex — and began producing civilian cars again in 1947.

From the outset, the postwar company set its sights on global expansion.

In 1957, the firm set up its most ambitious overseas operation, Toyota Motor Sales USA, in an abandoned Rambler dealership in Hollywood. The first car it sold in the U.S. was a pokey, boxy, four-door Toyopet Crown sedan in the summer of 1958.

The early Toyotas sold here handled poorly when driven more than 60 mph and tended to overheat in the mountains and deserts. Toyotas were derided by American automakers as cheap and poorly designed imitations of real cars.

But Toyota's prices were right. And over time, it improved efficiency at its factories to the point that they became models for modern industry.

"They are the best in the world at auto manufacturing," said Wangers of AMCI, the research firm. "Their production system is the one all others try to emulate."

The 1973 OPEC oil crisis gave Toyota and other import brands a big boost because they specialized in fuel-efficient cars at a time when domestic automakers were engaged in a gas-guzzling horsepower war.

By 1990, Toyota was selling 1 million vehicles annually in the United States. Then in 1999, Toyota shocked Detroit when it launched the first Japanese-made large pickup truck, the Tundra, and immediately bested Ford and GM trucks in various quality and buyer satisfaction awards.

Toyota also has made enormous investments in manufacturing and distribution facilities in the U.S., Wangers pointed out, with eight factories in the U.S. and a ninth under construction. It employs about 35,000 employees here.

As a result, Toyota is "more politically comfortable about challenging the domestics," Wangers said. "There's a good chance that in my lifetime — and I'm 46 — they'll surpass GM in global sales too."



Toyota timeline

1933: Toyoda Automatic Loom Works, a Japanese manufacturer of weaving machinery, starts an automobile manufacturing division.

1937: Spins off the unit as Toyota Motor Co.

1947: After World War II, begins producing cars again.

1950s: The company introduces a just-in-time delivery system.

1957: Opens its first sales office in the United States.

1958: Sells its first car in the U.S., a four-door sedan called the Toyopet Crown.

1959: Toyota opens a plant in Brazil, its first plant outside of Japan.

1968: The economy-size Corolla debuts in the U.S.

1973: A surge in gas prices during the OPEC oil crisis boosts the popularity of Japanese economy cars.

1975: Toyota surpasses Volkswagen to become the bestselling foreign import brand in the U.S.

1983: The Camry is launched.

1984: Opens its first U.S. assembly plant in Fremont, Calif., a joint venture with General Motors Corp.

1989: Opens its first wholly owned major American plant, in Georgetown, Ky. Introduces the Lexus luxury line.

2000: The gasoline-electric hybrid Prius sedan is introduced in the U.S.

2002: Toyota produces its

10 millionth vehicle in North America.

2003: Toyota becomes the world's second-biggest automaker, with 6.78 million vehicles sold.

Sources: Toyota Motor Corp., International Directory of Company Histories,

Times research


Ford timeline

1903: Henry Ford starts Ford Motor Co. in Dearborn, Mich.

1908: Ford introduces the affordable Model T to U.S. drivers.

1922: The company acquires Lincoln Motor Co.

1927: General Motors surpasses Ford's annual sales for the first time.

1938: Ford launches the Mercury line.

1945: Henry Ford II takes over the company after his father's death.

1955: Ford introduces the popular Thunderbird.

1958: Produces the Edsel, which becomes one of the auto industry's most notorious flops.

1964: Introduces the Mustang, which in months becomes one of America's most popular cars.

1970s: Despite strong growth in its European subsidiaries, Ford and other domestic automakers' sales drop as U.S. consumers seek out more economically sized imports.

1980: Loses $1.54 billion after having to meet new clean-air standards for its vehicles.

1985: Introduces the Ford Taurus.

1989: Buys British carmaker Jaguar.

1999: Purchases Volvo's car manufacturing division.

Chief Executive Jacques Nasser announces he wants to move Ford from being an automaker to a major consumer services company that also makes cars.

2000: Buys Land Rover.

2001: Nasser is ousted. Henry Ford's great-grandson, William Clay Ford Jr., takes over as chairman and CEO.

Ford sales plummet, and the company loses $5.45 billion.

2003: Ford sells an estimated 6.4 million vehicles.

Sources: Ford Motor Co., International Directory of Company Histories,

Global Insight, Times Research

Originally posted by Twilight@Jan 24 2004, 04:03 PM
LOL I remember seeing the Scion Tc. The Turd supercharger for it allows the car to gain a whopping 40 horsepower.
Yup, 100% bolt on, no tuning required, factory warrantied, and you can finiance it with the rest of the car
Ofcourse you can swap some supra injectors, fuel pump, smaller pulley and some tuning and get some more uph out of it

It does not suprise me that Ford put themselves in this position. They deserve it. If anything good comes out of this we will see some better cars from Ford, which equals better competition, which equals better products from Toyota.

why so Anti-Ford??

Also have you LOOKED at any of the Scions?? They look like


Ford currently has 17 (21, including wagons that are not just a variation of a Sedan) Sedans available with all their brands:

1. Ford Focus
2. Ford Taurus
3. Ford Crown Victoria
4. Lincoln LS
5. Lincoln Town Car
6. Mercury Sable
7. Mercury Grand Marquis
8. Mercury Marauder
9. Mazda Protegé
10. Mazda Mazdaspeed Protegé
11. Mazda Mazda6
12. Volvo S40
13. Volvo S60
14. Volvo S80
15. Jaguar X-Type
16. Jaguar S-Type
17. Jaguar XJ

8 of these are what one might consider "actual" Ford brands (Ford/Lincoln/Mercury).

In addition to these, there are 10 coupes available:

1. Ford ZX2
2. Ford SVT Focus
3. Ford Mustang Coupe
4. Ford SVT Mustang Cobra Coupe
5. Ford Thunderbird
6. Mazda RX-8
7. Jaguar XK8 Coupe
8. Aston Martin V12 Vanquish
9. Aston Martin DB7 Vantage
10. Aston Martin DB9

5 of these are Ford Branded. And note, this is JUST Sedans and Coupes, there is the entire line of SUV's as well as minivans. They have enough to be more than competitive in the car marketplace as far as quantity goes.

Plus, how many manufacturers still offer something for those that desire a Station Wagon, well Ford offers these as well:

1. Ford Focus SE Wagon
2. Ford Taurus Wagon
3. Mercury Sable Wagon
4. Mazda Protegé5
5. Volvo V40
6. Volvo V70
7. Volvo XC70

Plus Ford has 14 SUV's available (9 of which are actual Ford brands)

As for new vehicles to compete - well, where do I begin? They have the Futura, 500, and the Freestyle coming out which are all incredibly promising. Plus the new Thunderbird as well as the completely Redsigned mustang which is making earth-shattering waves in the muscle car dept. especially with the GT now topping 300 ponies & torque
These are just from the Ford line. They also have the Lincoln Navicross coming out, which is (as my uncle, who is a plant manager for Ford described it) a "cross between a Mustang and a Lincoln LS" and should be available in the 2006 model year. It will be a high performance Sedan, that as of right now should have an optional 560 HP v10 available
) With a base 32V 4.2L V8 around 400 HP and the equivalent of the Chrysler "AutoStick". Plus there's the Mazda6, Mazda3 and RX-8 all of which are very promising, I am very partial to the Mazda6
Plus the new Volvo S40 and V50 are incredibly nice. Jaguar has a couple of new cars that I'm not familiar with, but I've see a few pics of and are very nice, plus the ever-growing XJR that has a 400HP Supercharged V8 and an absolutely amazing suspension - yet another incredible competitor for the performance Sedan market. There some new stuff from Land Rover, too - which is making a comeback due to their recent change in styling, etc. Aston Martin now has the DB9 Coupe and Convertible w/ a V12 that is just an incredibly fast sports car

So, I'm not quite sure how Ford isn't doing their job.

*edit* - SP & Grammar

Forgot to mention the Trucks. But there is something wrong if I have to get into how Ford Trucks are superior to all.

*edit* - Sorry, forgot to add - there is a reason that Ford's new slogan is "If you haven't looked at Ford lately, look again." There are good reasons for that slogan, and it should be taken literally.

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Ugh...while I LOVE Ford...I hate their marketing department. The marketing for EVERYTHING sucks. You see the Silverado on the back of every single magazine imaginable. I've seen the new F-150 ad in Motor Trend like one time...

I know I signed on Yahoo! about 3 weeks ago and this popped up for the Taurus. It wasn't even the RIGHT YEAR! It still had the 2003 interior and we are now on to the 2004 model year. Lordy.

Pic attached.




About the antifordness, for me being a 4 door car enthusiast, ford has greatly neglected the midsize market. If they want to sell cars, they should do it right, dont half azz it like they have been doing in the past, then release a new model and hope everyone comes flying back to eat out of their hand. When toyota came out, their cars were: "The early Toyotas sold here handled poorly when driven more than 60 mph and tended to overheat in the mountains and deserts. Toyotas were derided by American automakers as cheap and poorly designed imitations of real cars." - LA times article
From selling only 1 million vehicles in the US in 1990 only to over come ford in worldwide sales 13 years later is pretty damn impressive.

Although I dont agree with mazda being counted as a ford vehicle, I think it will be interesting to see what happens this year and the following years if ford and toyota are going to keep fighting for that second spot and winning it the year each company releases new cars. From toyota's view, they have:

scion tc
scion going nationwide
corolla xrs
lexus gs (dunno if its comming out in 04)
hybrid highlander (dunno if its comming out in 04)

which should be comming out soon. The prius is already gauranteed big hit and I wouldn't be suprised if two more of those vehicles listed become instant hits as well.

Last year toyota released:

scion xa & xb
lexus rx

Now with ford releasing many new vehicles I'm really going to wonder if they can take this 2nd spot back. I feel it may depend soley on the execution(yes this includes marketing) of how they release the vehicles. Look at which have cars failed:

cougar (towards the end)

Ford could have definitly done better to get these cars out there rather than discounting them heavily and killing their value while they fail to sell. No doubt ford has the cars, I'm just wondering if they can do it right.

I will agree with you that Ford's marketing department needs a major overhaul.

I was simply trying to make the point that Ford has plenty of vehicles to be competitive if you sit down and take a look. They are all very nice IMHO, they just are not marketed correctly. I don't think Toyota is making superior products by any means, they just market them much better.
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