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Discussion Starter #1
Alrighty guys, we all know that the main restriction in out exhaust is at the manifolds. Well, I've been working on a small scale CO2 laser. If I redesigned and rebuilt the laser, I could easily get it to cut steel. I'll save you on all the technical jargon regarding the laser itself, but if I coupled it to a crude homemade CNC machine through stepper motors, I could start making headers controling it all from my computer so every single one is the same and there aren't misfitting issues. No offence Duratec guys, but I'm aiming more at the Vulcan because 1) I have a FFV and 2) There isn't as much for the Vulcan. However, the designs would likely be very similar, so I'd of course build them for the Duratec as well.

The point is, who would buy headers for their engine and who thinks that given proper design and benefits, it would be a worthwhile investment? Also I'm a nut for precision, so don't worry there. The laser is part of another project also, but modifying the laser would only take a small amount re-engineering now, rather than a lot later on. So, who thinks headers would be worth it?

-mobiuslogic
 

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I'm not sure what you are planning on doing here... cutting the manifolds from a block of steel? They wouldn't really be headers then (not that that matters.) Headers are tube steel "head pipes" that are joined together. A manifold is a one-piece construction with many passages converging together into one. I'm not trying to be critical here, I just don't know what it is you are trying to do.
 

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I'm sure it will be a cake-walk.


Buy the exhaust manifold gaskets, gasket cut a flat piece of steel to make the flange, then just buy some pre-bent mandrel bent tubes and weld 'em on there Then buy some header collectors and weld the other ends of the pipes together into that. I don't know why more people don't make their own headers.
 

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Originally posted by mikehawk@Jan 6 2004, 04:13 PM
I'm sure it will be a cake-walk.


Buy the exhaust manifold gaskets, gasket cut a flat piece of steel to make the flange, then just buy some pre-bent mandrel bent tubes and weld 'em on there  Then buy some header collectors and weld the other ends of the pipes together into that.  I don't know why more people don't make their own headers. 
Actually, that's pretty much all there is to it. BUT, there are really two basic problems.

The easy problem is that the manifolds allow for very close clearances, whereas headers tend to have a larger radius around the bends. This is good, because it helps exhaust flow considerably, but it is bad because it won't clear many of the accessories in our crowded engine bay. I'm sure mobiuslogic could come up with a good comprimise though, since he has CNC machinery and he could follow a 3D plot of the obstacles he needs to clear.

The difficult problem to tackle is the performance tuning. Early attempts at headers for the V8SHO, despite their obvious flow increases, killed engine performance. It takes a lot of trial and error to get the primary collector lengths just right, etc.

I'm not trying to discourage this though. It sounds like a very interesting project. And while the Ranger headers won't work on our Vulcans, I'm pretty sure headers for our Vulcans would work for theirs. So there is a market there, for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
That's pretty much the idea, the main problem though is it's pretty hard to precisely cut through 3/8" of even mild steel, and even harder to make a pattern match up with port sizes and bolt holes. Pretty much anything other than tungsten carbide will get eaten up in the process, yet 300 watts of beam power focused to a spot about a half millimeter in diameter is plenty. IN FACT, lasers are measured in Watts of beam power per square centimeter (W/cm2). Well for example, even 100 watts in a 1mm x 1mm beam is the equivalent of 10,000 W/cm2. And I plan to go even smaller than 1mm. So yeah, laser machine out the flanges and weld on tube steel runners. I'm thinking mild steel as a medium. It's cheap and easy to work with, and tubes are easily found cheap as well. Only drawback is it's less than ideal corrosion resistance, but that's really only a problem with the FFVs that may run ethanol (alcohol is corrosive.) However, industrial strength bling factor will solve that no problem. Besides, what's the point of headers without the bling factor? I mean really? Anybody?

-mobiuslogic
 

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Hows about a laser cut supercharger kit


-Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #7
One other thing, like I said, the laser is getting built regardless of the headers. However if I want to adapt the laser into a CNC machining center to cut the flanges, NOW is the time to go down that road and it'll still be able to do what I first had in mind and still be able to cut the exhaust flanges.

-mobiuslogic
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Originally posted by dant98@Jan 6 2004, 04:47 PM
Hows about a laser cut supercharger kit


-Dan
Forgot to mention that, but yes that's a possibility also.

-mobiuslogic
 

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Is the other purpose home security?


-Dan
 

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AS for the header plates, you should be able to get them from a vendor. Those plates SHOULD be the same as a ranger exhaust header plate. The important thing for headers is that the exhaust tube runners are all the same length, taking into account the inertia loss due to bends in the pipe. That is my guess as to what caused the performace losses on the v8SHO headers - uneven exhaust pressures leasing to backpressure on some cylinders, which could cause misfiring and detonation. Good luck mobius.
 

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Originally posted by mobiuslogic+Jan 6 2004, 04:52 PM-->QUOTE (mobiuslogic @ Jan 6 2004, 04:52 PM)
<!--QuoteBegin-dant98
@Jan 6 2004, 04:47 PM
Hows about a laser cut supercharger kit


-Dan
Forgot to mention that, but yes that's a possibility also.

-mobiuslogic [/b]
Oh pulllease... I hope you're kidding about laser cutting a 50,000rpm compressor.

If you are going to design headers, all you really need is to make a thicker version of the exhaust manifold gasket (3/8th thich should do), and then weld on some mandrell bent piping with collectors. The challenge is that they will all need to be the same length, while fitting in the engine compartment, in order to have the real affect of headers.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Jeez Mikey, you sound pretty skeptical, but that's ok, I understand. However no, I don't plan on cutting through a supercharger, but an adapter plate that bolts the supercharger on was more the idea, and I'm sure the idea that DanT had. And, if you check my earlier post, I said 3/8th inch exactly already. And yeah, equal lengths with proper collectors is the way to go, I know.

-mobiuslogic
 

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Originally posted by dant98@Jan 6 2004, 04:55 PM
Is the other purpose home security?


-Dan
Actually that would be a good idea. Why not make lasers that burn people when they try to steal your car? That would be an awesome use for a laser.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally posted by Twilight@Jan 7 2004, 01:26 AM
Actually that would be a good idea. Why not make lasers that burn people when they try to steal your car? That would be an awesome use for a laser.
yeah it would be badass, but to do any real damage you'd need about 1000watts of input power and a good design to hopefully get about 100-200 watts output. 3 problems though. 1) That would kill the battery pretty quickly 2) CO2 laser light is fully absorbed by water, and the beam would take a long time to do any real damage as once it gets past the skin the water of the blood would soak up the beam quickly before it got deeper (however it would be killing red blood cells at the sametime, if you count that as damage) 3) Other people, cars, eyes, things like that would likely get you into a lot more trouble than the mini-cigarette burn you'll put on someone.

Oh yeah, the original reason for the laser was to put a hole through my mom's dinner table. My sister said that I couldn't build a laser and that even if I did, it "wouldn't even be able to cut through the wood of this table" (as she points at the dinner table.) Ah, sibling rivalry alive and well. So know I also have to burn a hole in my moms dinner table. I figure I'll just make the CNC system and the laser system detachable and build them in phases. Mom won't be happy when I drive down to LA to visit her and put a hole through the table but oh well. Or better yet, I'll burn TCCA in the table. Then I can mock her auto Prelude too!

-mobiuslogic
 

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Originally posted by mobiuslogic+Jan 7 2004, 02:28 AM-->QUOTE (mobiuslogic @ Jan 7 2004, 02:28 AM)
<!--QuoteBegin-Twilight
@Jan 7 2004, 01:26 AM
Actually that would be a good idea. Why not make lasers that burn people when they try to steal your car? That would be an awesome use for a laser.
yeah it would be badass, but to do any real damage you'd need about 1000watts of input power and a good design to hopefully get about 100-200 watts output. 3 problems though. 1) That would kill the battery pretty quickly 2) CO2 laser light is fully absorbed by water, and the beam would take a long time to do any real damage as once it gets past the skin the water of the blood would soak up the beam quickly before it got deeper (however it would be killing red blood cells at the sametime, if you count that as damage) 3) Other people, cars, eyes, things like that would likely get you into a lot more trouble than the mini-cigarette burn you'll put on someone.

Oh yeah, the original reason for the laser was to put a hole through my mom's dinner table. My sister said that I couldn't build a laser and that even if I did, it "wouldn't even be able to cut through the wood of this table" (as she points at the dinner table.) Ah, sibling rivalry alive and well. So know I also have to burn a hole in my moms dinner table. I figure I'll just make the CNC system and the laser system detachable and build them in phases. Mom won't be happy when I drive down to LA to visit her and put a hole through the table but oh well. Or better yet, I'll burn TCCA in the table. Then I can mock her auto Prelude too!

-mobiuslogic [/b]
how did you get the knowledge to build a laser?
 

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Originally posted by silvapain@Jan 7 2004, 12:18 AM
AS for the header plates, you should be able to get them from a vendor.  Those plates SHOULD be the same as a ranger exhaust header plate.  The important thing for headers is that the exhaust tube runners are all the same length, taking into account the inertia loss due to bends in the pipe.  That is my guess as to what caused the performace losses on the v8SHO headers - uneven exhaust pressures leasing to backpressure on some cylinders, which could cause misfiring and detonation.  Good luck mobius.
IIRC, the two sets of headers that were made were not hack-jobs with unequal length primary tubes. Simply making the tubes the same length is just the beginning of the problem. If ALL the tubes are either too short or too long, gains will be minimal at best. Actually, there are some applications in which unequal length primary tubes will be desirable. AFAIK, there is really no way you can derive an absolute equation for the length, since each application will have a different series of bends, each engine has been developed with a different backpressure in mind, etc. The situation is so complicated that it is really just trial-and-error. Now, if this was something simple, like a SB Chevy RWD application, you probably could use the hundreds of header designs already out there to derive an equation. But that would be too easy.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Originally posted by afi292@Jan 7 2004, 03:27 AM
how did you get the knowledge to build a laser?
I was born with it.


No, lots of reading, math, and physics. Plus, I've used computers and built rockets since I was like 4, so I've kind of always been in the technical scope of things.

-mobiuslogic
 

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Originally posted by mobiuslogic+Jan 7 2004, 01:58 PM-->QUOTE (mobiuslogic @ Jan 7 2004, 01:58 PM)
<!--QuoteBegin-afi292
@Jan 7 2004, 03:27 AM
how did you get the knowledge to build a laser?
I was born with it.


No, lots of reading, math, and physics. Plus, I've used computers and built rockets since I was like 4, so I've kind of always been in the technical scope of things.

-mobiuslogic [/b]
Make sure you watch austin powers 2 at least 3 times before you build your own laser.
 

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Thats cool these might be made, awesome, how hard are they to install on a vulcan, the front header, no prob it can bolt right off, but the rear one, wow that might be tricky huh? the price inst a prob Ill just bust butt to get em, keep up the sweet work!!
 

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Originally posted by taurus8916@Jan 7 2004, 04:10 PM
Thats cool these might be made, awesome, how hard are they to install on a vulcan, the front header, no prob it can bolt right off, but the rear one, wow that might be tricky huh? the price inst a prob Ill just bust butt to get em, keep up the sweet work!!
I think a subframe drop would be in order. If you think about it, the front one isn't exactly going to drop in either.
 
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