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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I have been running an AFE ProDryS washable air filter in my van for years love it. Before anyone judges my comments here, allow me to explain. I know very well that performance filters don't do anything for performance on a stock motor. But many people have been buying K&N filters because they don't want to spend money on paper filters just to throw them away. The idea is that if you can clean and reuse the filter, it will save money over time.

However over time, as independent tests have shown, the oiled cotton filters allow relatively high amounts of particulate material to pass through the filter media, which defeats the whole purpose of even having a filter. In the same tests, it was actually shown that the oiled cotton filters also loaded with dirt and became plugged far more rapidly than the paper media.
ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

However, a company called Advanced Flow Engineering (AFE)developed a dry media, which is not only reusable, but is basically in the same ballpark as OEM filters in terms of filtering efficiency. It does flow a little more freely than a paper filter, largely because of the way it is made, it has more pore openings without making them larger. I consider any flow benefits to be of little consequence.

AFE makes a filter that fits The Ranger, Taurus and Aerostar. I have been using the filter in my Aerostar for years, and have to say I will never go back to a K&N type filter. The AFE is easier to clean, cheaper to clean, can run longer between cleanings, and I don't have to worry about MAF sensor contamination of the risk of dirt getting to the engine. I also don't have to worry about putting the "right" amount of oil on the filter.

The down side is that AFE does not currently make a drop in filter for the Taurus 3rd Gen. I am trying to see if any of you guys other than myself would have any interest in a reusable filter that is better all around than a K&N. If you guys are interested in this, perhaps we can convince AFE to tool up to make a filter for our cars that will fit into the stock airbox.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think all the 3rd gen models use the same filter, including the SHO.
 

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Why Go Green ?

I've always been a Green Filter person. I absolutely love the product. It's a 2-layer cotton gauze filter. Haven't had any issues with the Green Filter. I don't follow trends, I follow what makes sense.

Why Go Green?

Monsoon
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ok, problem with cotton, it does not have the ability to remove small particles that can still be harmful to the motor. The Green filter people give a good pitch, but where is the documented proof that any of their claims are true. If they are serious about their claims, where are the results of their ISO5011 test? I can see cotton, which is a biodegradable material, dry rotting over time.

This is besides the point anyway, I am trying to gauge interest in a drop in filter replacement, not a cone filter. Green Filter does not offer a drop in for the Taurus. I am trying to see if anyone here is interested in something that fits the stock air box.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well, I've decided pursuing this isn't really feasible. AFE wants 1000 orders before they will tool up to make a filter for the Gen3, and I know that would be very difficult to set up.

Its a shame that these companies don't volunteer to develop products for Taurus'. I guess there is a stereotype with these cars, that they are owned by old people who don't care about performance.
 

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Green Filter does not offer a drop in for the Taurus.
Absolutely FALSE. They have a drop-in filter. I wouldn't gauge all cotton filters to be the same. Do you gauge all engine motor oils to be the same??

If cotton filters are biodegradable after how many miles? Or age? Where's the data for this????

Monsoon.
 

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Give-and-take, you want more horsepower, you sacrifice fuel economy. Want more flow in your air intake, you sacrifice filtering capability/capacity.

Exactly what is the content of what seeps past a cotton-gauze air filter, foam filter, paper filter, dry filter, etc? Of these contents which would not compress/be eradicated during the combustion process? At what point does this become dangerous for the engine and how much life does it shave off of the engine in terms of miles/hours?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Absolutely FALSE. They have a drop-in filter. I wouldn't gauge all cotton filters to be the same. Do you gauge all engine motor oils to be the same??

If cotton filters are biodegradable after how many miles? Or age? Where's the data for this????

Monsoon.
If they made a drop in filter for Gen3 Taurus' then why didn't I find it on there site. I entered my year and make, and Taurus was not an option. That means they either don't make it, or they've made it hard to find.

Where's my data to support cottons degradation? Take a look at old shop rags, which are cotton. After a few years, especially if they are exposed to heat, cold, moisture, etc. the cotton starts to break down. After repeated washings, the cottons pores will open up, and it doesn't take much. Larger pores means more dirt, and any more dirt than absolutely necessary is too much.

You state teh filter goes down to 8 microns, that is a lot better than K&N. However, going down to the 5 micron range is better, since fine dust is between 5 - 10 microns. They also did not state at what % efficiency the filter is at 8 microns.

All this being said, I could find no information that could verify their 8 micron size, or filtering efficiency. The Green Filters have NOT been subjected to an ISO5011 certification test, which means any test data and filtering efficiency they claim has not complied with industry test standards, which means the claims they make cannot be taken seriously. If they really want to claim how good their filter is, subject it to an ISO5011 test, which will tell us all we need to know about its filtering efficiency, airflow, how much dirt passes through the filter, how quickly the filter plugs, etc. My guess is that the Green Filter may have slightly higher filtering efficiencies than the K&N, but will still have the rest of the problems inherent with oiled filter elements. Namely, they plug faster, they filter more efficiently when new, then the figures drop off as the filter plugs up.

Back to oiled filters, cleaning oiled filters is way to much work. After cleaning a dry filter element, I will never go back to an oiled filter. AFE's dry filter can be cleaned with a vacuum cleaner, rinsed with water, or simply taken out and shaken.
 

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Khan,
You need a little spoon feeding, see High Performance Green Air Filter, Part# 2097. And that's a 3rd generation part number, fits my 1997 Sable.

And as far as clogging, here's some real world data for you.

I run my car in one of the most dusty environments in the USA, southern Arizona with about 12K to 15K miles per year. And clean the filter once a year. Under these conditions the filter is starting to look dirty, with no significant loss in power or fuel economy. With cleaner environments you may be able to run 30K before your 1st cleaning. Good enough for me.

"Back to oiled filters, cleaning oiled filters is way to much work. " Really? If I can change my own transmission fluid or stuff in a new radiator, cleaning the Green Filter is a walk in the park.

Monsoon
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
See, if that filter is the number, then why can't I pull it up on their site when I try to enter a 1996 filter. I should have to pull up a different year to find what I'm looking for. Which guess what, If I use their online catalog to look up your 1997 model, guess what, it doesn't pull anything up. No listing for Taurus.

As far as clogging, your real world data is meaningless. Without hard data to support it, is subjective, relative, and is nothing more than an opinion. Who says you will get a fuel economy decrease from a plugged filter? Modern fuel injected vehicles get about the same economy on a clean filter as they do a plugged filter, the computer adjusts the fuel according to the amount of air entering the engine. On an older carberated engine, a plugged filter would alter the mixture and make it rich, but that is a myth on todays cars, unless it gets so plugged that you have to go WOT to accelerate, in which case, yes the economy will drop off.

Who is to say on your application that a stock paper filter wouldn't do just as well.

Just for those who may not look at this test, let me spell some of this out. This test is an unbiased test using industry standard procedures to measure filtering efficiency, longevity, and flow.

So where did K&N come in on the test?
http://home.roadrunner.com/~jbplock/ISO5011/Spicer_files/image002.jpg
Guess what the other loosers on this test are? Thats right, they are oiled filters. So where does that place your holy grail Green Filter? Thats right, it would be among the loosers, certainly not one of the better filters.

So lets do a comparison. I can take my dry filter, rinse it with water, shake off the excess water, maybe let to dry a couple minutes and put it in. Or I can take your Green Filter, spray it with a cleaning solution (money), let it break down the dirt and grease, rinse it off, let it dry (completely), then spray a new coating of the special oil (money), then reinstall. I'm sorry, between the two, mine is much faster and easier to clean. Yours is no easier than the K&N filters. And its got the oil that can foul the MAF. Just because yours hasn't fouled doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

What makes you think where I am is any less dusty than Arizona? I am in the desert too. We have red dirt here too, and regular dust storms. I run 30,000 0 40,000 miles per year. I have run my AFE panel filter in my van for 70,000 miles between cleanings and it still hadn't clogged up. But really, I'm only bringing that up because you did. It doesn't prove anything, heck either of us could make those numbers up. Thats what ISO tests are designed for, a consistent, repeatable test, that puts hard numbers as a reference point, with an OEM paper filter as the baseline to meet.

Seems to me, you need a little spoon feeding? Why the harsh attitude? I was merely asking if anyone was interested in a dry washable filter that was a factory fit. An oiled filter is not a dry filter, so your recommendation is off topic to begin with. Secondly, I is obvious that I do more driving than you? How many vehicles have you run past 500,000 miles? Honestly, lets not make this a credibility test or challenge one anothers credentials.

There are only a few reasons for you to back these Green Filters so strongly.

1: They are what you say they are, which is an excellent filter that is easy to use, removes al particles that can damage the motor, and they are a great investment. If this was the case, there should be documented proof in the form of an ISO5011 test showing all the major areas of performance.

2: You have been duped in to believing that their claims are true, and because you have no bad experiences to date, that must mean those claims are true, despite the lack of any hard evidence.

3: You are a distributor of the Green Filters, and the claims of a rival product are a threat to your potential sales.

Where do I stand on this? I was just asking if anyone else was interested, because I would love to have a direct fit dry filter for my car. The company that makes these filters does not currently have a direct fit for our cars. However, I contacted AFE, and the initial order to arrange a group buy is impractically high, meaning this isn't going to happen. So I counter defense of claims that I have a conflict of interest, I stand nothing to gain by any of this talk. I do not sell AFE filters, I just use one on one of my other work vehicles.

For those interested in looking at the results of the Spicer ISO5011 test, here is the link
ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Sure. If the stuff that gets through the filter is pollen, bacteria, and organic material, it will just compress and burn. But if the stuff that gets through is silica based, thats another story.

My brother bought a 2000 Dodge Dakota new. He used it largely for work, you know, the typical hauling stuff around. He used the K&N filter for most of its life. By the time it reached 140,000 miles, it began to develop a misfire on the #3 cylinder. A few simple tests determined that the rings on #3 were not sealing. At the time, he didn't put 2 and 2 together. The check engine light was intermittent enough, that it passed the emissions test for several more years. He sold it to my dad, who was aware of this issue, but since it would frequently sneak past the emissions, all was well. All he had to do was take it in for testing at the times the light was out. Around 250,000 miles, that started to change, the CEL became almost a permanent thing. Took it in to have it test, found misfires on #1, #2, #3, #5, and #6. Had it balanced, found that all cylinders had low compression, the oil injection test only worked #2 and #3.

So we found a replacement motor with lower miles, and disassembled the old motor to see what was going on. We found severe scoring on the cylinder walls of #3. Looked like several grains of sand had managed to get through the filter and into the engine, where it happened to get caught in the rings. The same pattern was found on #2 and #6. So what about the other cylinders that had misfires? All of the cylinders had valve seats that looked like they had been sand blasted. They had a worn eroded look and had small pits, which looked like something had been crushed into the seat between the valve.

Now I am not in general impressed with Mopar products, but the 3.9L V6 is known to be a very reliable engine, and this wear was not typical wear and tear with age. My dad owns several vehicles with even higher mileage, and I used to own a truck that had racked up over 500,000 miles. So I know that with the care me and my dad take with out engines, that Mopar should have been good for another 200,000 miles. My take on what went wrong? Abrasive materials managed to find their way through the filter media and do internal engine damage. Hard to prove, I know. K&N makes no claims about their filtering efficiency, they seem to shy away from the question. They have a finer cloth cover which they recommend you use if you are in dusty environments. This cloth cover is a finer weave than the filter itself.

So my take on what this stuff can do to your engine? It can take off at least tens of thousands of miles off the engines potential lifespan, maybe even hundreds of thousands of miles.

Of what would get through an oiled filter media? It would be fine particles, many of which would bring oil residue with them. This oil will help ensure that they stick to cylinder walls and stuff, where they have the greatest change of doing damage. What would get through a dry media? small Pollen, Bacteria, nothing that would be abrasive. And if an abrasive particle did come through, since it would not be covered in oil, it will not stick to anything, minimizing its potential to do damage.
 

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Got any answers to my questions?

You'll have to ask the filter expert. I'm voicing my real-life experiences with the Green Filter. I think I paid $40 years ago for the Green Filter and after a good wash and cleaning it looks new again.

I think with filters at what point in size where it does not matter how small the partial is, it's not going affect engine wear? Whatever this value may be anything smaller is pointless.

And even if the media is twice as fine as the Green Filter the probability of it clogging is going to be higher. Once there is significant clogging, fuel economy and engine performance will suffer. Just like any other filter on the market.

Other than the Green Filter change, years ago I switched from Fram oil/fuel filters to Motorcraft oil/fuel filters. And I'm very happy with the performance and endurance of Motorcraft filters. These small changes help keep my car reliable.
 

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Ok so the Green Filter lets anything smaller than 0.0000312" by and your dry filter lets by anything smaller than 0.0000195". Let's say it all happens to be silica-based. Exactly how much of this would have to be in any given cylinder to become an abrasive media? Considering the filling and emptying nature of the cylinders, there is no way for the media to accumulate. So you would have to be rallying out in the desert to get that much silica media past the filter and into the cylinders at one time to score them.

Considering your example of the Dakota engine and the fact the Check Engine light was intermittent and obviously had issues. I doubt the K&N air filter is to blame for it. Cylinder wall scoring typically comes from pre-detonation and overheating, which causes the pistons to expand within their bore and score the cylinders. There is a lot more mass and velocity within the pistons to score the cylinder walls to cause compression to drop than a couple grains of sand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Heres the thing, silica based particles only go so small. 8 microns is about as small as they go. The Green filter, claims to filter down to about 8 microns, but without an efficiency percentage attached, thats not a meaningful value. 8 microns is the test standard for air filters. AFE reports their filter to be 99.2% efficient at 8 microns. Green filter claims to filter down to 8 microns, but makes no efficiency claim, which means that the efficiency at that size could be anything from 50% to 99%. It is most likely around 95%.

Your claims about scoring don't match up. Normal wear and tear will gradually polish the cylinder walls. The kind of scoring observed in this engine is typical of abrasive a material getting caught between the piston and the cylinder wall, or in the rings. And that theory you offered does not explain the valve seat wear. I'm sorry, we have run many vehicles at much higher mileage than this. Seriously, it began loosing compression at just 140,000 miles.

For the record I paid $40 or my AFE ProDryS cone filter that I used on my Mazda. It also replaced a K&N, which had a nasty habit of fouling the MAF sensor, which it did on the factory oiling. I had to clean the filter and the MAF every 3,000 to 5,000 miles, after which throttle response would restore, and the pinging would go away. Thats part of the dark side of using that type of filter, if there is too much oil, it migrates to the sensor, if there is too little, it does not adequately protect the engine.

As far as oiled filters clogging more rapidly, its an easy explanation. If the oil makes the dust and dirt clump together, the pores in the filter become restricted. If the filter media is made from a fiberglass and plastic media, the dirt does not stick the the filter. One of the companies I deal with uses a similar system, they use Teflon coated plastic filters to catch ceramic dust. The filters clean themselves practically. The AFE filters are not Teflon coated, but much of the dirt will fall off the filter instead of plugging it..
 

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AEM has a "DryFlo" filter for their intakes. you can put it on any 3" CAI. They have different sizes too. Just tossing this out there.
 

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Normal wear and tear will gradually polish the cylinder walls. Really?

There a lot of variables that go into normal wear and tear. Every engine is designed differently. Therefore you have to compare apples to apples. In other words in wouldn't be a fair comparison with a Duratec vs a Vulcan for normal wear and tear because the designs are so different. A more fair comparison may be the economic life between the two engines.

And that $40 filter you bought. From my perspective it appears you simply bought the wrong filter.
 
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