Secondary Air P0411 Help Needed - Taurus Car Club of America : Ford Taurus Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-26-2007, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Boston Mass. area
Posts: 1,096
Rep Power: 0
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
This is for a Northeast 98 Vulcan with the wonderful secondary AIR system normally shoehorned only into California cars, but as I understand it, was fitted to certain NE cars.

I'm once again getting a P0411 code ("the flow in the secondary air injection system is incorrect") on hot idle.

Relevant diagnostics words from the Ford Manual:
"The functional check may be done in two parts: at startup when the AIR pump is normally commanded on, or during a hot idle if the startup test was not able to be performed. The flow test relies upon the HO2S to detect the presence of additional air in the exhaust when introduced by the Secondary Air Injection system.

The DTC associated with this test is DTC P0411. "

Air flows into the manifold on cold startup so the pump and valve seem to be OK.

The code appears after driving about 20-30 minutes while idling at a traffic light or stop sign -- gotta be the "hot idle" referenced in the manual.

My question is what or where is the "H02S" ?

(I've done a search, but everyone here who uses this acronym apparently knows what it is...)

1986 MT-4 4-cylinder (R.I.P. circa 1990, rust, clutch)
1994 Station Wagon (R.I.P. circa 9/2005)
1991 Station Wagon (R.I.P. 1/2007, but the Benz that pulled out in front was bent much worse)
1998 SE Station Wagon (R.I.P. 2/28/09 at ~186k)
2004 Taurus SE w/Vulcan & AX4N | dark shadow gray metallic | gray cloth interior | still strong at 192K+
2000 Taurus SE wagon w/Vulcan & AX4S / tropic green metallic | gray cloth interior | purchased 6/12 at 51k miles
OldWagon is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-26-2007, 09:24 AM
Crazy Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 15,578
Rep Power: 64
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
Send a message via AIM to godspunk32
HO2S = Heated Oxygen Sensor.

All of the oxygen sensors in teh Taurus have a heated wire that brings the temperature of the sensor up quicker than if they were just stuck in the exhaust pipe, thus bringing the car out of closed loop more quickly.

JR





To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

godspunk32 is offline  
Old 03-26-2007, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Boston Mass. area
Posts: 1,096
Rep Power: 0
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:

My question is what or where is the "H02S" ?

[/b]
Nemmine - found it in the manual : heated oxygen sensors.

Any easy test for the sensors? Manual has something that I don't understand about switching and output voltage...

1986 MT-4 4-cylinder (R.I.P. circa 1990, rust, clutch)
1994 Station Wagon (R.I.P. circa 9/2005)
1991 Station Wagon (R.I.P. 1/2007, but the Benz that pulled out in front was bent much worse)
1998 SE Station Wagon (R.I.P. 2/28/09 at ~186k)
2004 Taurus SE w/Vulcan & AX4N | dark shadow gray metallic | gray cloth interior | still strong at 192K+
2000 Taurus SE wagon w/Vulcan & AX4S / tropic green metallic | gray cloth interior | purchased 6/12 at 51k miles
OldWagon is offline  
 
Old 03-26-2007, 09:41 AM
Crazy Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 15,578
Rep Power: 64
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
Send a message via AIM to godspunk32
The only way is to either use a breakout box, which is a specialty tool, and something only the dealer would have, or to measure the voltages and resistance coming from the sensors.

JR





To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

godspunk32 is offline  
Old 03-27-2007, 10:34 AM
Crazy Devoted Member
 
shoz123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ashkum, Illinois
Posts: 14,124
Rep Power: 62
 
Trader Score: 4 reviews
DTC Description Possible Causes Diagnostic Aides
P1411 - Secondary Air Injection (AIR) system downstream flow The secondary air injection system does not detect the presence of air in the exhaust when introduced by the secondary air injection system Electric AIR Pump
Hose from AIR pump leak
AIR bypass solenoid leak/blocked
Hose from AIR pump blocked
AIR bypass solenoid stuck open/closed
In order to test the AIR pump, it must be capable of driving the HO2S lean.


There is nothing wrong with the HO2s. It is the SAI that is bad and usually it is the relay located under the pump. It is located on the subframe under the battery. There is a small 1" hose that appears to go nowhere, this is the intake hose for the pump.

Paul Nimz
'10 Red Genesis Coupe
'08 Hyundai Accent
shoz123 is offline  
Old 03-27-2007, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Boston Mass. area
Posts: 1,096
Rep Power: 0
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with the HO2s. It is the SAI that is bad and usually it is the relay located under the pump. [/b]
That's the odd thing. I get air through the injector pipe when starting up, cold. It quits after a minute or so, so I think the pump, relay, and bypass solenoid are working, at least when cold.

The pipe from the pump to the solenoid seems to be ok.

Any idea where the pump intake is? Maybe a screen is partly clogged and I'm not getting the air flow I need.

I guess I could try cycling the solenoid (is it 5v, or 12v or something else?) when it's hot... maybe it expands and jams.

1986 MT-4 4-cylinder (R.I.P. circa 1990, rust, clutch)
1994 Station Wagon (R.I.P. circa 9/2005)
1991 Station Wagon (R.I.P. 1/2007, but the Benz that pulled out in front was bent much worse)
1998 SE Station Wagon (R.I.P. 2/28/09 at ~186k)
2004 Taurus SE w/Vulcan & AX4N | dark shadow gray metallic | gray cloth interior | still strong at 192K+
2000 Taurus SE wagon w/Vulcan & AX4S / tropic green metallic | gray cloth interior | purchased 6/12 at 51k miles
OldWagon is offline  
Old 03-27-2007, 11:00 AM
Crazy Devoted Member
 
shoz123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ashkum, Illinois
Posts: 14,124
Rep Power: 62
 
Trader Score: 4 reviews
Here is more info

http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/DTCP0411P14...icRoutines.htm


Paul Nimz
'10 Red Genesis Coupe
'08 Hyundai Accent
shoz123 is offline  
Old 03-27-2007, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Boston Mass. area
Posts: 1,096
Rep Power: 0
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Here is more info

[/b]
Thanks for the link. I just visually checked the system and discovered what must be the intake tube (short 90 degree rubber elbow pointing down) with its nose buried against/into an oil or transmission line.

It was at least 3/4 blocked by the oil line. I managed to twist it forward so its little snout is now clear. If this pump depends on free breathing, it was definitely not getting free air flow.

I have one more thing to check, then I'll reset the codes and drive around for a while.

Thanks,
Dave

1986 MT-4 4-cylinder (R.I.P. circa 1990, rust, clutch)
1994 Station Wagon (R.I.P. circa 9/2005)
1991 Station Wagon (R.I.P. 1/2007, but the Benz that pulled out in front was bent much worse)
1998 SE Station Wagon (R.I.P. 2/28/09 at ~186k)
2004 Taurus SE w/Vulcan & AX4N | dark shadow gray metallic | gray cloth interior | still strong at 192K+
2000 Taurus SE wagon w/Vulcan & AX4S / tropic green metallic | gray cloth interior | purchased 6/12 at 51k miles
OldWagon is offline  
Old 03-27-2007, 12:20 PM
Crazy Devoted Member
 
shoz123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ashkum, Illinois
Posts: 14,124
Rep Power: 62
 
Trader Score: 4 reviews
FWIW the PCM will see if the H20s go lean when the SAI should be running when the engine is first started. If not the PCM will try again when at a highway cruising speed. It is then when it will set a code if the sensors don't go lean.

Paul Nimz
'10 Red Genesis Coupe
'08 Hyundai Accent
shoz123 is offline  
Old 03-27-2007, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
Devoted Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Boston Mass. area
Posts: 1,096
Rep Power: 0
 
Trader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
PCM will try again when at a highway cruising speed. It is then when it will set a code if the sensors don't go lean.
[/b]
In my case, my experience matches the description in my Ford manual -- the code light came on Sunday after a slight stumble while idling hot at a traffic light (see my OP -- the first time it came on was idling at a stop sign, waiting for our endless Northeast traffic to clear).

Anyhow, I should be able to do my next, full visual on the pipe between the solenoid and the exhaust manifold with mirror tomorrow. Right now, the car's at my wife's work right now and won't be back until after dark. Tomorrow morning, after the visual, I'll reset the code by taking off the negative terminal, then (terminal back on) drive around a couple of days to see if the SES light reappers.

Thanks, Shoz123, for all the pointers.

Dave

1986 MT-4 4-cylinder (R.I.P. circa 1990, rust, clutch)
1994 Station Wagon (R.I.P. circa 9/2005)
1991 Station Wagon (R.I.P. 1/2007, but the Benz that pulled out in front was bent much worse)
1998 SE Station Wagon (R.I.P. 2/28/09 at ~186k)
2004 Taurus SE w/Vulcan & AX4N | dark shadow gray metallic | gray cloth interior | still strong at 192K+
2000 Taurus SE wagon w/Vulcan & AX4S / tropic green metallic | gray cloth interior | purchased 6/12 at 51k miles
OldWagon is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Taurus Car Club of America : Ford Taurus Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Thread Tools



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome