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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 09:04 PM
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I don't believe we have the need for a track event at this time. But, I also agree with Randy about you not being more wrong. I do have a vulcan, with suspension mods, and it's far from being the "boat" you describe. I've had instructors at TWS compare the handling of my car to their race prepped car. I can also gaurantee it's not all that slow either, just ask Wesley Snipes. I just don't see the need for a track event if that's going to effect attendance on a large scale as it has done before. I also do not understand all this talk about stuff being "out" due to cost to the club, when an entire event can be done with 0 cost to the club.

Rudy Heinemann Jr.


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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
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QUOTE (soccernamlak @ Mar 5 2009, 08:55 PM)
Quote:
QUOTE (RPFlloyd @ Mar 5 2009, 08:03 PM)
Quote:
QUOTE (Twilight @ Mar 5 2009, 06:12 PM)
Quote:
I personally have never had any interest in track events. Am I interested in high performance driving and doing laps? Hell yeah. But these cars could not be any worse for that purpose.[/b]

You could not be more wrong.
[/b][/quote]


SHO maybe. But a Vulcan/'tec Taurus.....I agree that these cars aren't designed for being on the track and will not compete with other cars designed for said track.
[/b][/quote]
I had my 01 Vulcan on track duty for a number of years and it competed quite well. It's all about learning to drive the car and getting the right suspension setup...

-Jason Kennedy
97 Expedition EB 4x4 5.4L, Flex-A-Lite Electric Fan Conversion, Flowmaster exhaust, Hawk Brakes, TransGo Shift Kit, High Output Alternator, Modified Air Suspension, HD Bilstein Shocks, Bridgestone Dueler AT Revo tires
06 Mustang GT, 13.85 @99.9, Ford Racing Handling Pack, Ford Racing Exhaust, K&N Intake, Hawk Brakes, Race Rubber
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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 09:47 PM
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Allow me to preface by saying this could come off like me sounding like I am butt-hurt, however, I assure you, this is not the case.

Late last year, I sent Firespirit a PM offering to help plan a good meet. I was advised that I should contact Jason 8225, which I did.

Jason and I seemed to not get along well about my ideas. I expressed that I was not happy about the club taking a financial hit, and I also expressed that perhaps it was time to try something new. Something new is my specialty, as every time I do a Nationals for the Mitsubishi crowd, we change location. It's tradition to do that, and it is tradition to try to top the one before it.

Jason heartily disagreed with a "social" meet, or car show type event, citing that they do not attract large crowds, and that a track day "makes the meet". This is where I disagree. And apparently now, is wanting a "social" gathering. I had mentioned to Jason that times are tight right now, and people would probably go for something on the cheap, and that all it took was a bit of imagination. After we had our fight, I went on to plan StarQuest Nationals 2009, of which has commercials on Youtube, T Shirts designed already, vendors donating parts for giveaways, hotel suites at a discount, real beveled glass plaques to present to the show winners, and one scouting trip completed, and one more scheduled. Along with this is a morning fun run through the twisties of southern Missouri, and northern Arkansas.

Guess what? Something like that can be done for the Taurus crowd just as easily. I spent three months, with a team of two other people, and got it done. And the Mitsubishi club has paid not one thin dime. Matter of fact, here's what the meet this year is costing my members.....

$65 a night for the hotel suite (yes, everyone got suites)
Free breakfast included
$29 registration, includes T shirt, and prize tickets, plus other trinkets. (One of them being a 1 GB thumb drive with every year parts and service manual loaded on it)

The rest is on them. Drinks, food, whatever. I admit, I sunk a few of my own dollars into this, but such is the commitment for a sharp meet. For example, I am in for one trip to Branson now, and there will be another in the spring, 2 sets of two-way radios for the meet staff to use at the meet, and some other items.

Here's some of what's been accomplished in 3 months working time......

Shirt:


Logo for meet:


Plaques for winners....


Location of meet:
http://www.area57events.com/events.cfm
Please note June 5-7!

Commercials.....
Commercial 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_rkCfO6uA0...re=channel_page

Commercial 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49KA7Wz1Nyo...re=channel_page


That's as good a taste as I can give you........but I asssure you, my meets are talked about, and revered......because everyone has a ball, and they are cheap.

Zorin

EDIT: By the way......ANY of you are welcome at the meet. Feel free to show up. You can gather all the info from the Area 57 site, and we do have a non-Mitsubishi class for the car show.


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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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There are some facts that need to be clarified.

Jason disagreed with a social meet for ROTB, not a social meet in general or a SOTC meet as I am proposing that we have. We've never had one of those. For that matter, I've never heard of any car club having anything such as that.

Second, this SOTC meet will not draw a large crowd. I guarantee it. Name one meet this club has had that drew a larger crowd than ROTB...

Your disagreement about the club taking a financial hit on track events is understood, but we plan for such things and make sure we have the capacity to do so. It is not a reckless or mismanaged hit. Most track events leave the club with a surplus of funds, there is no reason not to reinvest those funds toward subsidizing another event to benefit our members.

You're right that I do disagree with some of the ways that you proposed doing things. Different clubs operate differently and have different turnouts and responses to events. There are going to be inherent operational differences and success rates than with your club. TCCA could not successfully hold a ROTB in Branson. Turnout would be very low as it would alienate the areas with the highest concentration of members - the Midwest and Northeast.

Different clubs function in different ways.

-Jason Kennedy
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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 10:05 PM
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Not to mention the 30 foot tall inflatable movie screen during the car show, showing Cannonball Run II featuring Jackie Chan's Mitsubishi Starion.

Rudy Heinemann Jr.


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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE
Quote:
TCCA could not successfully hold a ROTB in Branson[/b]
And how do you KNOW this??



QUOTE
Quote:
Turnout would be very low as it would alienate the areas with the highest concentration of members - the Midwest and Northeast.[/b]
So, alienating the rest of the club is ok by you?? Because that's exactly what you're doing. OR, are you saying that they are unwilling to physically attend, because it's not "up there"??


Everytime I've posted something about planning something, there have been responses stating that if we were to have it in Texas they'd be sure to come. I've NEVER planned on having it in Texas, even though it's MY backyard. I've been all over it, it takes 6-8 hours to navigate from one end to the other, in ANY direction. I want the be all end all center of the universe middle area, where someone from Washington state has an equal drive as someone from S.florida, someone from Mass to S. Cali, S.Padre to Canada. You don't alienate ANYBODY and EVERYONE is invited, just show the hell up. It can be done, "you"(generic usage) just have to be open enough to do it.

Rudy Heinemann Jr.


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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2009, 11:52 PM
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I, personally, rather like the social aspect of a gathering. A track event isn't a 100% must for a successful meet. School prevented me from going to a ROTB in the past, but if I was able to go, I sure as hell wasn't running the Taurus on a track. I was excited to meet folks, see the cars (car shows are fun, too!), and just enjoy the activities.

Zorin isn't one to bull****, or spew out false claims of meet greatness. The dude delivers. So why stop him from helping this club create a successful gathering? ROTB CAN happen in the same year as a SHO convention, and I don't see how it would detract from this year's SHO convention if ROTB was held, too.


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"YOU WILL ALL BOW DOWN TO MY AWESOME SHO THAT IS REALLY JUST A TAURUS WITH FIDDLY BITS AND TWO MORE CYLINDERS!!!11ONE" -Dan
"If you got the lack of sense to mod a TAURUS you should be allowed to cut a hole in your hood. Let everyone see the extent of your madness" -Luke
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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 08:43 AM
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I know I'll take flack for this, but here goes:

A large chunk of those who attend these events are SHO owners. They may not post on this board, but as Jason already pointed out:

"First of all, ROTB has traditionally been about having a track event. I've organized many track days for our club including ROTBs and non-ROTB events. It has been discovered that the demographic of our club will not support a track day that costs more than Gingerman. They are among the most economical in the country and attempts at organizing events at other locations have failed. Additionally, we are heavily dependent on outside clubs and individuals to support our track days. This is something that many of you may not realize. If it weren't for the non-TCCA attendees, all of our previous track days would have been failures."

While I do not doubt Zorin or Rude (I know better than that) in their willingness to organize, etc ... Jason has the experience of organizing with this particular club. Something tells me the Starion club and the TCCA are a vastly different member base. Relying on outside clubs and individuals is a chunk of SHO folks too. With the new SHO coming and the potential for it to maybe be at the convention, I can see where Jason is coming from. You would be held to likely garnering attendance based solely on members of the board. Looking back at old threads about interest in attendance, here is how it goes:

Generic enthusiastic response: "I'll be there. No matter what. I may only hang out though, but I WILL be there"

Generic excuse after dates/locations are settled: "Change me to a maybe. Money is kinda tight right now. My mom won't let me go. Etc"

Now don't get me wrong, I think the RoTB is a GREAT idea for those who feel like they want their own event and not the SHO event. I have been to Gingerman and met some of the guys who attend and they are great guys who I had a blast with. (except Jason, he was trying to get me drunk and take advantage of me ). I also think that if someone wants to step up and plan one for this year, let them have at it. Worse thing that can happen is it winds up a wash and that person/group has information for next time already at their fingertips.
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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 09:36 AM
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Flloyd,

Everything you said has a truth to it.

I'm going to jump around a smidge, but try to follow me, because I will tie it all up.

The Starion crowd vs the TCCA crowd.

No. They are not all that different. Matter of fact, allow me to enlighten you. A lot of Starion owners are younger people, buying cheap thrills. The cars can be had cheap because no one knows how to repair them, they blow headgaskets and become lawn ornaments quickly, so kids buy them for dirt.......just like the rest of us. You have your kids getting budget thrills, and then you have those of that really do a number on the cars. That sounds JUST like here to me. You get kids getting Tauruses for dirt, or even free, and driving them, and keeping them on the road, and you have members that do a number on the cars. We don't have to look far for evidence of that, now do we?

Demographics:

I'll keep harping on this one for the cheap seats. Cheap is exactly the term here. You got a bunch of kids that want an outing, and just don't have money to spend on track days. Track days are fairly hard on a car with a lousy transmission to start with, and they are expensive with the possibility of getting VERY expensive. Consider what a car faces on a track outing.....hoses are put to the test, cooling systems strained, transmissions tested almost to destruction, brakes worked beyond belief. Everything that you put in bold from Jason is exactly why I wrote that. Your members, as a group, cannot afford that. Hell, the Starion guys won't pay for it either, and our cars are MADE exactly for that.

Attendance:

It's human nature to knee-jerk, and say oh, what an awesome thing, I will be there. But then reality and life sets in, and and people come back down to earth. Especially when you figure up the costs involved in a track day.


I'm very likely wasting my time here, because for one, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jason8225 doesn't like me, and likely thinks I'm just some crazy bastard that doesn't know **** from shinola. Rudy is right when he mentioned alienating the rest of us down this way. I would love nothing more than to meet all of you guys, Jason included. I'd bet that differences could be easily resolved while beers are making rings on the bar, but I can't drive to the Northeast for that, and neither can a lot of people. For two, consider that cars are cars, and people are people. I have experience with both. Setting up a car meet is not hard, like I said, it's imagination, it's drive, and it's making sure that everything gets done. Most importantly, it's keeping things fresh, keeping things exciting, keeping things different.

In conclusion, I would like to remind all that the reason we are all here is the cars. The cars brought us together. However, the cars are not what makes a meet, it is the people. The track events, the bull****, none of that matters. At the end of the day, it's comaraderie that strengthens the bond between owners, and that is what keeps a club together. Just as I told Jason, if you run through life with your foot on the floor, you're going to blow right by what's really important.

Zorin


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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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This discussion is getting very skewed. I'm going to try to somewhat organize things here but there isn't a great way of doing it in the amount of time I have available to make this post.

Differences between the Starion club and TCCA:

There are some inherent differences in the mindset of TCCA vs. Starion folks.

First of all, very few people, if any, purchase a Taurus with any kind of performance in mind. They are generally inhereted from parents or relatives and viewed as a comfortable, reliable mode of transportation. Some models have a sporty curb appeal but that's about it.

Just look at a Starion. It is clearly a different type of vehicle than a Taurus and will attract a different demographic of driver. There's no way around that. More Starion owners are going to be interested in performance than Taurus owners.

So, while the price may be shared territory between our clubs everything else about the cars and owners are, in most cases, significantly different.

There are plenty of vehicles that can be had at similar prices to what our cars go for. Saying that because the price is the same that the owners will have similar mindsets is not accurate. That's like saying just because two different brands of any product are the same price that the owners will have common interests and use them in similar ways.

Track-specific issues on the cars:

The strain on vehicles on a track that you describe is true. However, Tauruses have proven to hold up to this extremely well. Everybody talks about it like it's a big problem, etc. The reality is that there have only been maybe 2 TCCA track days where a car couldn't be driven home. I had my 01 Taurus on its stock transmission out on Gingerman with over 110k miles with no problems (transmission or otherwise). I never had any real issues that car, especially none that were track related. A well maintained Taurus can handle a track day or two per year, no problem. This has been proven by many folks in this club.

General demographics discussion:

I'm not going to spend anymore time discussing the differences between TCCA and "X" club. It is not relevant to address the ROTB or SOTC issues at hand and will not produce anything productive toward the cause. Bottom line is that I've been organizaing and running many events for this club for 5 years and I've been the President for about 3 years. I have to work with the historical information I have available regarding demographics, attendance, locations, etc. No matter how you spin it, these are things that need to be evaluated on a per-club basis; that is what is being done.

Information specific to TCCA about attendance:

I'm not sure why personal differences are discussed in this section but they are not relevant to the topic so I'm ignoring that. Our actual attendance vs. "interest" numbers are very low (as they are in most demographical comparisons, but ours are even worse). Part of my "day job" is a significant amount of Sales and Marketing - I have plenty of good sources and experience with evaluating this type of information so I can speak about it in generality. The fact that there are very few responders to this thread (positive, negative or otherwise) is speaking volumes about support that may or may not exist for a ROTB this year.

Randy is spot-on with his post (well, mostly - we won't discuss the taking advantage of him part ).

At any rate we've gone far off-topic with this discussion.

Bottom line:
  • There will not be a ROTB event this year. Instead we will be having a National SOTC / Social meet. Anybody interested in a track event is advised to attend the SHO Convention.
  • ROTB events have always included a track day. That precedent has been set. As such, there will not be TCCA events called ROTB if they do not include a track event.
  • A final location has not yet been decided for the SOTC meet. If a case can be built to have it somewhere other than the NE or MW and we will still have strong attendance I'd be all for it. However, people need to start speaking up and building the case.

When I evaluate all the information I have about the club (past attendance numbers, locations of members and past participation rates) the numbers tell me that the event needs to be in the NE or MW. It is a simple numbers game. We don't want to alienate anyone or make people drive crazy distances (which I have done myself on numerous occasions). No matter what we do there will be people that can't make it and people that feel alienated. This is the part of my job that sucks - I have to try to please as many people as possible but it's impossible to cater to everyone. I care about having each and every member of this club present but that's not feasible.

Rudy and Mark - I very much want to have you guys present at this event but I can't move it to a location that is going to cause only 10 people to show up just to make it feasible for you. I realize you're not asking this (specifically) but that is the reality of the decision that I am faced with making. I can tell from the years we've spent talking on these forums and the chance I got to meet Rudy that I like you guys very much but unless there is a solid case for it I can't very well move the event. Hopefully you understand and appreciate the position I am in with this whole thing.

-Jason Kennedy
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