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View Poll Results: K&N & Mobile 1 oil filter / pressue issues?
Audible momentary engine knock at start up, every start up. 7 35.00%
Flickering oil light briefly at start up 1 5.00%
No problems 12 60.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2009, 11:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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QUOTE (SHOZ123 @ Oct 16 2009, 09:26 AM)
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Condensation forms on objects that are cooler than the surrounding air. How does a radiator become cooler than the air? My guess is you have a leak in the side tank. These tend to leak, especially on the drivers side, when the radiator cools down,. As the tanks get hot they will expand and seal. Common Ford radiator problem for the last 20 years.

As far as the "premium" oil filters having a thicker medium and causing knocking at start up this is BS. There should be a bypass valve in the filter and there is one before the filter in the block. Either should allow oil flow under a restrictive filter situation.

The problem is more than likely the oil is draining out of the filter when the engine is off and sitting overnight.[/b]
That's exactly my theory of the problem, since I'm having the exact problem with my Mobil 1 filter. Mine never had the cold startup noise with the Motorcraft filters. Mine had Mobil 1 oil with Motorcraft filters every 5-7k since 25k, so I can rule out sludge on the sump screen. The noise dosen't happen with every cold start, though, and the noise only lasts 1 second from the valvetrain, and goes away.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The oil filter looses pressure after only a few moments..As I said I clock about 120 miles a day and am in and outta the car at least 10 times a day. While none of my other Vulcans (1994 Aerostar and the 92 Taurs GL) never hammered with premium filters - knowing Ford they probably chinzed out on the oil pump in the last production years of the vulcan (I believe mine was the last year 2007)

As far as the coolant / rad steaming thing//I was puzzled because I never loose coolant, never had to add any ever, yet I have had 3 Taurus a 1992 GL (Vulcan), a 2001 SES Dura, and the 07 (Vulcan) and this is the only one that does this... Actually so bad during rain that a co-worker/Chevy ******* pointed it out with the "See the typical Ford leaking something.." comment.. LOL! I was brain storming and maybe the weather strip seal around the radiator shroud is allowing water to drain over the radiator as it drains off the hood??? I only see it on frozen mornings and especially when it is pouring rain out good.

I get to enjoy the 2010 for the whole weekend! The catalytic flex pipe is back ordered! WOO HOO!

I'll haveta post a pic or two!


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Old 10-16-2009, 11:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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QUOTE (ragjungle @ Oct 16 2009, 10:31 PM)
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The oil filter looses pressure after only a few moments..As I said I clock about 120 miles a day and am in and outta the car at least 10 times a day. While none of my other Vulcans (1994 Aerostar and the 92 Taurs GL) never hammered with premium filters - knowing Ford they probably chinzed out on the oil pump in the last production years of the vulcan (I believe mine was the last year 2007)

As far as the coolant / rad steaming thing//I was puzzled because I never loose coolant, never had to add any ever, yet I have had 3 Taurus a 1992 GL (Vulcan), a 2001 SES Dura, and the 07 (Vulcan) and this is the only one that does this... Actually so bad during rain that a co-worker/Chevy ******* pointed it out with the "See the typical Ford leaking something.." comment.. LOL! I was brain storming and maybe the weather strip seal around the radiator shroud is allowing water to drain over the radiator as it drains off the hood??? I only see it on frozen mornings and especially when it is pouring rain out good.

I get to enjoy the 2010 for the whole weekend! The catalytic flex pipe is back ordered! WOO HOO!

I'll haveta post a pic or two![/b]
Never had the radiator problem, or the flex pipe problem, but this last summer I had to add about a pint of coolant, and never had to add anymore since (keep in mind our average July/Aug high was 102 this year). What problems I did have were the brake master cylinder and the a/c evap water leak on the floor. Thats all, knock on wood!
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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QUOTE (austex04 @ Oct 16 2009, 10:37 PM)
Quote:
QUOTE (ragjungle @ Oct 16 2009, 10:31 PM)
Quote:
The oil filter looses pressure after only a few moments..As I said I clock about 120 miles a day and am in and outta the car at least 10 times a day. While none of my other Vulcans (1994 Aerostar and the 92 Taurs GL) never hammered with premium filters - knowing Ford they probably chinzed out on the oil pump in the last production years of the vulcan (I believe mine was the last year 2007)

As far as the coolant / rad steaming thing//I was puzzled because I never loose coolant, never had to add any ever, yet I have had 3 Taurus a 1992 GL (Vulcan), a 2001 SES Dura, and the 07 (Vulcan) and this is the only one that does this... Actually so bad during rain that a co-worker/Chevy ******* pointed it out with the "See the typical Ford leaking something.." comment.. LOL! I was brain storming and maybe the weather strip seal around the radiator shroud is allowing water to drain over the radiator as it drains off the hood??? I only see it on frozen mornings and especially when it is pouring rain out good.

I get to enjoy the 2010 for the whole weekend! The catalytic flex pipe is back ordered! WOO HOO!

I'll haveta post a pic or two![/b]
Never had the radiator problem, or the flex pipe problem, but this last summer I had to add about a pint of coolant, and never had to add anymore since. What problems I did have were the brake master cylinder and the a/c evap water leak on the floor. Thats all, knock on wood!
[/b][/quote]
Funny, my master cylinder is funky too. I forgot to mention it! It gives out about half way through the pedal travel (Like collapses suddenly and then stops the car sensitively/abruptly) sound like your deal?
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
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My 07 SEL steams as well. Only in the morning and only when it is very humid and cool/raining. My 99 F-150 does it as well. Nothing is leaking it has to do with where you live and the climate.

I run my car approx 1000 miles a week. It has 110k on it already! Why on earth are you running premium fuel?

My F-150 will knock at start up with cheap filters because the filter is in a position that it can "Drain Back" into the engine. The filter on the 07 Vulcan points down just a bit so it should always have some oil in it so i don't think "Drain Back" is the issue.

It sounds more like an issue of initial flow just for a brief second or two. This is why you may not notice that the oil light comes on. 10w xx is a possible cause. The slower ignition of premium fuel at cold start up is a possible cause.

Also even though a Premium filter has a bypass with a 10w oil at cold start up it will take a brief second or two for the oil to push through a high quality bypass arrangement thus possibly causing a knock.

Lastly the reason that new 10 taurus is so nice is that it is basically a volvo.

Just some thoughts to ponder.
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
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QUOTE (HCMQA @ Oct 17 2009, 08:08 AM)
Quote:
My 07 SEL steams as well. Only in the morning and only when it is very humid and cool/raining. My 99 F-150 does it as well. Nothing is leaking it has to do with where you live and the climate.

I run my car approx 1000 miles a week. It has 110k on it already! Why on earth are you running premium fuel?

My F-150 will knock at start up with cheap filters because the filter is in a position that it can "Drain Back" into the engine. The filter on the 07 Vulcan points down just a bit so it should always have some oil in it so i don't think "Drain Back" is the issue.

It sounds more like an issue of initial flow just for a brief second or two. This is why you may not notice that the oil light comes on. 10w xx is a possible cause. The slower ignition of premium fuel at cold start up is a possible cause.

Also even though a Premium filter has a bypass with a 10w oil at cold start up it will take a brief second or two for the oil to push through a high quality bypass arrangement thus possibly causing a knock.

Lastly the reason that new 10 taurus is so nice is that it is basically a volvo.

Just some thoughts to ponder.[/b]
"The slower ignition of premium fuel at cold start up is a possible cause." doesn't make sense to me, for a few reasons:

1. premium fuel burns at the same rate that regular does. 92/93/94 octane fuel about resistance to *preignition*, and nothing else.

2. Even if we ignore point 1, an engine that spins over longer before it fires makes *more* oil pressure before things get movin', not less.

The startup knock (whatever the *reason*) is about how long it takes for the oil pressure to build. Oil pressure is partly about flow (5W30 flows better than 10W30 at low temps) but in this case I feel it's pretty safe to say the filter is to blame. Either the filter doesn't have an anti-drainback valve, or the one it has doesn't work very well.

As far as 10W30 taking substantially longer (as it long enough to cause startup knock), I can't say I agree but I won't belabor the point.

It's not about the filter having "some" oil in it, it's about the filter disallowing flow *backwards* from the *top* of the engine through the filter and back into the sump - the filter could be *full* and that wouldn't be all of the oil volume that is after the filter.

I think it's pretty clear. It's the filter. Why, I cannot say, and can only guess, but to me it's pretty clear.
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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QUOTE (ragjungle @ Oct 16 2009, 10:42 PM)
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Funny, my master cylinder is funky too. I forgot to mention it! It gives out about half way through the pedal travel (Like collapses suddenly and then stops the car sensitively/abruptly) sound like your deal?[/b]
Exactly what mine was doing before the dealer replaced the master cylinder under warranty. There's a pattern of failures, usually around the 50k mark or less, with the last two model years of the gen 4.5. Ford should issue a recall.

10w30 oil should be okay as long as it's fully synthetic, but I'd only use 5w30. I don't use 5w20 anymore, becouse it's too thin for a pushrod engine in this climate. I'll post back after I change my oil again, but with the Motorcraft filter. My startup noise should be gone. I don't use premium fuel as it makes my car run funny, and it only needs regular anyway.
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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My point about the premium fuel is that it burns slower than regular and maybe you are not hearing bearing knock but hearing a cylinder that is firing a fraction of a second after it should have. All conjecture and theory on my part.

All tops of engines drain down to the pan after rest. That is why you check the oil in the morning or after the engine has been at rest for a period of time. There is no reservoir of oil in the heads being held back by an anti drain back valve.

My understanding of the anti drain back valve (Which of course I could and am frequently wrong) is that it is used to keep the filter and the initial pick up line primed so at start up the oil is already there to be brought to the top of the engine with the least amount of delay.

Now I am not sure if I remember this correctly but the rod bearings are not sitting in the the oil in the pan. So that being said at start up the oil must be pumped to the top of the engine and then flow down to the rest of the engine correct? If yes than even the slightest delay would cause a knock.

What makes this so curious for me is that the only time I hear any sort of bearing knock at start up is after a fresh oil change with an empty filter. Once the filter is full/saturated I never hear it again.

Man I wish someone way smarter than me would chime in. Like and engine manufacturer's engineer! (Not someone that has been working on cars for 30 years because that is me)
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:27 PM   #29 (permalink)
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QUOTE (austex04 @ Oct 17 2009, 06:48 PM)
Quote:
QUOTE (ragjungle @ Oct 16 2009, 10:42 PM)
Quote:
Funny, my master cylinder is funky too. I forgot to mention it! It gives out about half way through the pedal travel (Like collapses suddenly and then stops the car sensitively/abruptly) sound like your deal?[/b]
Exactly what mine was doing before the dealer replaced the master cylinder under warranty. There's a pattern of failures, usually around the 50k mark or less, with the last two model years of the gen 4.5. Ford should issue a recall.

10w30 oil should be okay as long as it's fully synthetic, but I'd only use 5w30. I don't use 5w20 anymore, becouse it's too thin for a pushrod engine in this climate. I'll post back after I change my oil again, but with the Motorcraft filter. My startup noise should be gone. I don't use premium fuel as it makes my car run funny, and it only needs regular anyway.
[/b][/quote]


Why would 10W30 be OK, but only if it's synthetic?
10W30 is 10W30 whether it is synthetic or not. That's why they call it 10W30. If it flowed better at cold temps they'd call it a 5W30 or a 0W30, but it doesn't so they don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
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QUOTE (HCMQA @ Oct 17 2009, 06:49 PM)
Quote:
My point about the premium fuel is that it burns slower than regular and maybe you are not hearing bearing knock but hearing a cylinder that is firing a fraction of a second after it should have. All conjecture and theory on my part.[/b]
But that's exactly the opposite of my statement: my understanding is that premium fuel does *not* burn "slower" than regular. premium fuel is about two things: higher octane and better profit margins (and maybe more detergents...). But *octane* has nothing to do with the speed at which the flame front propagates through the cylinder - it has to do with the ability of the fuel-air mixture to resist predetonation from carbon build up and other hot spots - not nearly as hot as a sparkplug's spark, however.

QUOTE (HCMQA @ Oct 17 2009, 06:49 PM)
Quote:
All tops of engines drain down to the pan after rest. That is why you check the oil in the morning or after the engine has been at rest for a period of time. There is no reservoir of oil in the heads being held back by an anti drain back valve.

My understanding of the anti drain back valve (Which of course I could and am frequently wrong) is that it is used to keep the filter and the initial pick up line primed so at start up the oil is already there to be brought to the top of the engine with the least amount of delay.

Now I am not sure if I remember this correctly but the rod bearings are not sitting in the the oil in the pan. So that being said at start up the oil must be pumped to the top of the engine and then flow down to the rest of the engine correct? If yes than even the slightest delay would cause a knock.

What makes this so curious for me is that the only time I hear any sort of bearing knock at start up is after a fresh oil change with an empty filter. Once the filter is full/saturated I never hear it again.

Man I wish someone way smarter than me would chime in. Like and engine manufacturer's engineer! (Not someone that has been working on cars for 30 years because that is me)[/b]
It really depends on the design of the engine in terms of lubricant flow - some engines have built-in anti-drainback valves and some don't. I don't know the Vulcan design well, but I suppose a spec is available somewhere. It's an overhead valve pushrod design, so I'm guessing there isn't a ton of flow to the valves, consequently even a very minor volume loss can result in substantial time to repressurize the valve train.

It's all kind of moot anyway: choose what works. A motorcraft is very similar to the purolator in construction anyway, with an excellent ADBV - the materials used in the anti drainback valve definitely make a difference, too.

Cheers!
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