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Sable 93' - 3.0 V6 - Engine after put an gear or braking

9K views 74 replies 5 participants last post by  pawpaw 
#1 ·
Hi all!

I have a problem with my Mercury Sable from 1993 with Vulcan V6 3.0 Engine.

About a month ago I replaced a forward planet (#1) and sun gear shell(?) (#2)

I'll put a photo with these parts (a broken ones and new)

After repair a transmission I drive this car about a two weeks. TS work properly and changes smoothly gears.
Two weeks after I slow down to stop on lights...and a engine dies. I noticed engine dies only on OD/D/R gear, but on 1 no!
I tested how the car keeps on 1 gear while driving. When Im braking, engine chokes and dies with big hit. This happens on +/- 2000rpm.

After this situation I checked the check engine light with KOER and KOEO test.
Then I have a codes: 326, 335 and 565.
Some days after I replaced a EGR Valve and CANP to work ones and I tested the car.
Same things - car dies after put a gear, but on 1 starts properly. When I driving on this gear and braking to stop, engine chokes at this time on 1000rpm and dies without 'hit'!

After this I checked again codes. I get this time: 326, 335, 639.
The worst is it, I replace the speed sensor to new about a two years ago...

About other things I cleared the MAF and IAC. Nothing has improved.

On this time I don't have any idea what to do now. I really love this car, but this problem really annoys me.

At the end I really sorry for my english and I hope You help me :)

Best regards
Kamil
 

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#2 ·
Welcome to TCCA.

I see you don't have any replies yet, so I'll see if I can get things started.

Good idea to have scanned for & posted the trouble code Numbers, as they can often provide good trouble shooting clues.

You've been busy on the transmission repair I see. It seems to have been ok after the repair for a while, so what "event" preceded the latest problems?

Lets begin with the basics, is the transmission fluid level correct & are you using the specified fluid? Is the fluid condition ok, no metal, or burned smell, does it still look clear & pink color?

Were you careful to keep it very clean inside during the repair & did you properly flush the cooler lines of any debris. Did you replace the transmission filter after the repair & is it the specified Ford filter?

After the repair did you install an additional inline transmission fluid filter in the return fluid line, like a Magnefine, to remove any remaining debris that may be stirred up & circulating in the fluid?

Have you fixed the P0326 & P0335 out of range EVP/PPE voltage problem?

Have you fixed the P0639 TSS = Turbine Speed Sensor, insufficient input trouble code problem? It may be a loose electrical connector, faulty wiring, or bad sensor.
 
#3 ·
You've been busy on the transmission repair I see. It seems to have been ok after the repair for a while, so what "event" preceded the latest problems?
Everything was fine. Transmission change gears very smoothly. The "event" what preceded this problem was braking to stop on lights. I slowly braking and on 1000rpm engine stalls and rpms fall to +/- 600 and engine dies

Lets begin with the basics, is the transmission fluid level correct & are you using the specified fluid? Is the fluid condition ok, no metal, or burned smell, does it still look clear & pink color?
Yes is correct. I used preferred fluid for this transmission. In fluid is no any metal and is not have a burned smell. And yes, it look clear and pink color.

Were you careful to keep it very clean inside during the repair & did you properly flush the cooler lines of any debris. Did you replace the transmission filter after the repair & is it the specified Ford filter?
Generally speaking: Yes

After the repair did you install an additional inline transmission fluid filter in the return fluid line, like a Magnefine, to remove any remaining debris that may be stirred up & circulating in the fluid?
No :mellow:

Have you fixed the P0326 & P0335 out of range EVP/PPE voltage problem?
No. I don't have any idea where to start to checked this.

Have you fixed the P0639 TSS = Turbine Speed Sensor, insufficient input trouble code problem? It may be a loose electrical connector, faulty wiring, or bad sensor.
No... I checked this sensor, replacing to other working one, I checked the wiring and everything is okay, I think.


Today I checked the codes after hard warming engine and I have codes: 336, 211 and 173 (with 326 and 639 of course)

I don't know what is a really problem, because when I started on "1" and in move on +/- 20km/h changes the gear to OD/D everything seems fine...while I don't want to stop, then the engine dies.
 
#4 ·
Ok that's good feedback, so lets think about this some more.

When coming to a stop & the engine want's to stall, it suggests that the torque converter isn't unlocking. This is like coming to a stop with a manual transmission in gear & not pushing in on the clutch to take the transmission out of gear to disconnect the engine from the drive line, it'll stall the engine. SO when coming to a stop, what happens if you quickly shift to "N", does that prevent the stall?

If the TSS sensor isn't providing the computer with good information, it can corrupt transmission shifting. So the TSS problem needs to be fixed & may be causing the engine stall when coming to a stop.

Were you having EGR problems before the transmission repair?
 
#5 · (Edited)
SO when coming to a stop, what happens if you quickly shift to "N", does that prevent the stall?
Yes! After this, everything back to normal and engine works good.


If the TSS sensor isn't providing the computer with good information, it can corrupt transmission shifting. So the TSS problem needs to be fixed & may be causing the engine stall when coming to a stop.
I came back from holiday with a damaged sensor two years ago and everything works fine in that moment (except transmission in "accident mode" of course)

Were you having EGR problems before the transmission repair?
No, I think. I never doing a KOER&KOEO tests. But everything works fine and it did not show that something is broken.


I will add a one think. Only on "1" gear I can start driving and braking. On this gear engine and transmission works fine. Only on OD/D/R engine dies after put a gear from P/N at a standstill.
 
#6 ·
Make sure the battery cables & their connections are clean, bright & tight.
Check the ground (B-) connection between the battery & engine & the body to engine connections are in place & clean, bright & tight.
Make sure the battery & alternator will pass an electrical load test. These are basic things that need to be right.
 
#7 ·
Make sure the battery cables & their connections are clean, bright & tight.
Check the ground (B-) connection between the battery & engine & the body to engine connections are in place & clean, bright & tight.
I checked this too and in my opinion this things works fine and connections are clean, bright and tight


Make sure the battery & alternator will pass an electrical load test. These are basic things that need to be right.
Sorry for my ignorance, but how to start a load test?
 
#10 · (Edited)
You can perform a limited alternator load test using your electrical DVM/Multi-meter, to monitor voltage at the battery connections at engine idle speed. It should be around 13.2 - 13.5 VDC.
Then turn on some heavy electrical loads, like the head lights, rear window defroster, cabin heater blower on High speed, push the cigar lighter in so it heats, while monitoring the multi-meter DC voltage, then rev the engine to about 2000-2500 rpm & see if it'll regulate the voltage to about 14-15 or so volts DC.

When you start the engine cold, does the battery have enough energy to turn the starter motor at a good rpm, without the headlights dimming really bad, or the starter motor sounding like it's having a difficult time/slow rpm, while cranking the engine for the cold start?

If the battery has removable cell caps, how does each cell specific gravity measure using your hydrometer? How closely matched is each battery cell specific gravity reading? This can give you an idea of how the alternator, battery, battery cables & their connections are handling a heavy electrical load, how well the alternator & battery cables & their connections are doing keeping the battery charged & being able to supply electrical power to run the engine with heavy electrical loads on it & the specific gravity will tell you how healthy each battery cell is.

Here in the USA we have auto parts stores that will make these tests at no cost, so maybe you have like stores where you live that could check your electrical system, if you find something that doesn't test right, or if you don't have a multi-meter, or hydrometer, or don't have friends that have those test instruments for you to borrow to perform the tests.
 
#13 ·
#14 ·
Hello again

Sorry for my long absence, but I had a lot of things on my mind.

On this time, when I started driving on '1' and in run changed gear to OD, car doesn't react on gas pedal. I push the gas pedal, passing a few moments and car start accelerating, but still very weak.
After this, I disconnected a cable from cruise control from throttle and this time car doesn't respond on the gas. But on '1' gear STILL everything works fine.

Today I warm up the engine, put the gear and of course engine dies. After this I checked the spark plugs and they are on gas...
After this, engine won't start on each time. I checked too a Fuel Pressure Sensor and cable who exit from him are wet. But this cable draws air and should be rather dry yes?

A trouble codes are same what the last time.
 
#15 ·
That's very good trouble shooting find & feedback information. Yes the fuel pressure regulator vacuum tubing should be dry inside. If it's wet inside with fuel, it would suggest the fuel pressure regulator internal rubber diaphragm is faulty & leaking fuel into the vacuum line & that vacuum line is connected to the engine intake manifold, so it'll corrupt fuel trim rich/too much fuel, so if bad enough, can cause the spark plugs to be wet with fuel. Replace the fuel pressure regulator. Make sure the vacuum tubing is in good condition, no signs of dry rot cracking, splits, or too soft, such that it's not making a tight fit/connection on both ends.

Disconnect the battery B- cable before replacing the pressure regulator, so as to wipe the computer KAM = Keep Alive Memory, as with this fuel leak it now contains corrupt fuel trim tables & corrupt cold & warm idle strategy.
After replacing the fuel pressure regulator, to avoid possible starting & drive ability problems, perform the cold & warm idle relearn strategy here. http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/1747555-post10.html
More thoughts for consideration, let us know the results.
 
#17 ·
#18 ·
Today I unscrewed a FPR and while shaking, the sensor does not emit any sounds. From what I saw on the internet, a sensor should buzz inside.
So, good to know that this part not working.

Can you tell me how this part working? This will be really a problem with the engine when he dies? A FPR therefore it does not work, does not give the appropriate amount of fuel for engine what causes he dies?

I write to a guy who arranged me a working EGR and CANP, maybe he have this part. But I have another question. You maybe know is this sensor for 15.55$ from RockAuto is in good quality? I don't have too much money at this moment and I don't want to overpay.
 
#19 ·
Standard Motor Products generally sells good quality parts.

The FPR should not make and noises when it is shaken.
 
#21 ·
Standard Motor Products generally sells good quality parts.
Thank you for answer!

Connect a piece of rubber, or plastic tubing to the fuel pressure regulator vacuum fitting & see if you can blow, or suck air through it with your mouth. If you can, it's rubber diaphragm inside is ruptured & is faulty/bad.
Yes, I can


Okay, thank you again. I am waiting for a response from guy what I was talking about. When he does not have this part, I order one from RockAuto.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Connect a piece of rubber, or plastic tubing to the fuel pressure regulator vacuum fitting & see if you can blow, or suck air through it with your mouth. If you can, it's rubber diaphragm inside is ruptured & is faulty/bad. You can test the replacement this way to check it without having to install the replacement part.

I've not had to replace my 94 Taurus OEM FPR yet, so don't have any reliable information about quality of the ones Rock Auto has listed. The Motorcraft one is likely ok, as it has to meet Ford specifications, but is the most expensive. The Air Tex one may be ok too, as they supply OEM parts to auto makers, The $15 dollar one is likely from China & who knows if it's quality is ok.
You might "E Mail", or call Rock Auto about their experience on the order of which brands of those FPR's listed has the fewest problems/returns, as that could be telling of quality. Maybe a TCCA member following this thread & reading your question, will post their experience. EDIT: Ok good, I see Jeff has replied about FPR quality while I was typing.

The FPR is responsible for regulating fuel pressure from the fuel pump, to the fuel injectors, so they'll deliver the correct volume of fuel when the computer turns them on electrically.

As I mentioned earlier, if the FPR internal diaphragm is ruptured, fuel pump pressure and engine vacuum will suck fuel through the tear into the vacuum line & into the engine intake manifold & corrupt the air/fuel mixture Rich = too much fuel from the FPR leak.

If the diaphragm is leaking fuel, the FPR vacuum line will be wet inside with fuel, which you said you found. If the FPR diaphragm leak is bad enough, it will leave the speak plugs wet with fuel, as you've said you found. If the FPR diaphragm has been leaking & corrupting fuel trim for some time, the engine power will be low & it'll run rough, which you described as problems your having. It'll also cause excessive fuel consumption, so if your mpg, or L/Km consumption has been dropping, this could have been contributing to the problem. So the FPR should fail your attached tubing to the FPR vacuum connection suck or blow test & replacing it should help improve a number of engine performance problems.
 
#22 ·
Ok good feedback on your diaphragm test showing it to be faulty, so that's two tests it's failed. Let us know how the engine runs with the replacement FPR. With a good FPR in place I think your about to experience a big improvement in engine performance & maybe in transmission shifting performance too.
After replacing the FPR, take the time to perform the KAM wipe & the cold & warm idle relearn routine in the link I posted above, as that can help too & let us know the results.
 
#24 ·
After replacing the FPR, take the time to perform the KAM wipe & the cold & warm idle relearn routine in the link I posted above, as that can help too & let us know the results.
Okay, I don't forget this.

^ Vectro, fwiw, I've used the Standard brand fpr from Rockauto on several of my '98-'99 Tauruses and it worked fine.
Thanks for answer! Good to know that this part is of good quality from another person :)
 
#25 · (Edited)
How long do you suppose the FPR has been leaking enough fuel into that vacuum line to have wet down the spark plugs? If you have a catalytic converter & you've driven a while with the rich air fuel mixture, the cat converter might be melted down internally from over heating, processing all that fuel. If the cat converter is partially melted down internally, you could have excessive exhaust back pressure that'll cause poor/weak engine performance.
So provide some information about how long you suspect the corrupt fuel trim began & if your Sable has a cat converter. If you have a cat converter & suspect it may be damaged internally from over heating, there are two, or three simple tests you could perform to test it for excessive exhaust back pressure.
 
#27 ·
Ok, good feedback, so you believe the FPR problem is recent. Does your 93 Sable have a catalytic converter in the exhaust?
 
#29 ·
Yes that is a cat converter. If you have one & have driven on the road for a long trip, or around town for a period of time with the air/fuel ratio corrupted Rich, by the leaking FPR diaphragm, to the point that the spark plugs were Wet with fuel, the cat converter would have likely seriously over heated & may have been damaged. I mention this because you may find the engine still performs poorly after the FPR replacement.

If you suspect the cat converter internal honey comb shaped matrix may be melted down from over heating, such that excessive exhaust back pressure is causing poor engine performance, use your vacuum gauge to measure engine vacuum performance by scrolling down & viewing scenario #14 here How to Use and Interpret a Vacuum Gauge
Another way to tell is to view the cat converter immediately after driving it. If seriously over heated it will glow Red hot & the engine throttle response & engine power at throttle up, may be weak, as the exhaust can't freely pass through the cat converter restriction. The same kind of thing can happen if the exhaust muffler, or exhaust pipe are restricted or kinked/deformed.
I mention these things for you to keep in mind for your trouble shoot, in case the engine performance doesn't fully recover after replacing the FPR & performing the KAM wipe & cold & warm idle relearn routine.
After replacing the FPR, the fuel pressure should be 28-39 psi (my 94 Taurus runs 30-31 psi) & volume should be 1/2 pint-15 seconds fuel pump run time. More thoughts for consideration. Let us know how it goes after replacing the FPR.
 
#31 ·
Hey, I got the used part with fuel rail and all six injections for 50PLN (~10$)

I read the post what @pawpaw send me with the cold & warm idle strategy relearn routine and I have a question:

Disconnecting the B- cable & leaving a door open, or lights on will quickly discharge things to wipe the KAM. Then close the door, or turn off the lights & any other electrical equipt, before reconnecting the B- cable.

With the vehicle completely cooled down, restart the cold engine, let it idle down some, then shift into each gear, including "R", slowly enough to have each gear engage. Don't step on the brakes, turn on any electrical loads, or turn the steering wheel, or touch the gas pedal & let the vehicle fully warm up. Then slowly shift into all gears, including "R" again. This will enable the computer to relearn its cold & warm idle strategy after the KAM wipe.
I don't understand some thing

After reconnect the B- cable how I can shift into each gears when engine running without step on brake?

I must do this?

1) Engine: ON
2) I let the engine idle down some time
3) Engine: OFF
4) Slowly turn all gears with brake pedal
5) Engine: ON
6) When the engine warm up, slowly again turn all gears
7) Carefully step on gas

yes?
 
#32 · (Edited)
Correct, if you have the safety brake pedal interlock, you must step on the brake pedal, in order to be able to shift gears. Thanks for reminding me that I need to edit those instructions. Seems my old mind got carried away with "don't turn on any electrical loads" & forgot that with the brake safety interlock, we must step on the brake pedal in order to be able to shift into all gears.

1: With the engine fully cooled down, step on the brake pedal & start the engine as you normally would.
2: Let the fast cold idle engine rpm slow down some, depending on how cold the engine is, maybe 30-40 seconds.
3: Then Slowly shift into All gears, including reverse "R", such that you can feel the transmission shift into each gear, ending in "P" park. This lets the computer learn its high idle rpm cold idle speed strategy.
4: Don't turn the engine off. Don't turn on any electrical loads, or turn the steering wheel, or don't step on the gas pedal, or do anything else that would cause the engine rpm to change & with the engine Running, let it idle until Fully warmed up. I wait until I hear my radiator electric cooling fan cycle on, or watch my temperature gauge peak & drop back to it's normal fully warmed up reading.
5: After the engine is fully warmed up, Step on the brake pedal & without moving the steering wheel, or stepping on the gas pedal, or turning on any electrical loads that would affect engine rpm, Slowly shift into All gears including "R" reverse, again. This will have the computer learn it's warm idle strategy. Taking the time to do this should help with smoother transmission shifting & engine idle, after a battery disconnect that erases the cold & warm idle strategy.

Sounds like you got a good price on all those parts for only $10. I hope the used fuel pressure regulator is good. If it is, you should notice a big improvement in idle speed quality, engine power & smoother transmission shifting. Let us know how it goes.
 
#34 · (Edited)
If you are having engine idle problems after replacing the used FPR, remove it's vacuum line to see if it's diaphragm is leaking fuel into the vacuum tubing & if ok, use your fuel pressure test gauge to perform a KOEO & KOER fuel pressure test & post the fuel pressure Numbers.

If all that is ok, but you still have idle problems, remove the IAC = Idle Air Control, for inspection & cleaning with a plastic safe solvent. In the USA we use CRC MAF or QD spray cleaners, as they are plastic safe.

If the IAC is ok, then check the throttle plate, to make sure it's clean, no deposits on it's outer diameter, or the bore into which it fits, that would cause the throttle plate to stick, or not fully close. This area can become dirty with oil & fuel varnish deposits & cause the throttle plate to not function as designed, so make sure it's very clean & moves smoothly.

If all that checks out ok, use your vacuum gauge to check the engine for operating problems, referring to the test scenarios in the link I posted on how to use a vacuum gauge to diagnose engine problems.

If all that checks out ok, after dark, start the engine & check the ignition coil, spark plug wires & spark plugs for signs of electrical break down/arcing, flashes of light. You might try using a spray bottle of water to wet each plug wire, the distributor cap, coil wire & spark coil, to see if you can induce arcing from faulty, damaged insulation or cracks in the plastic distributor cap, or coil.

I'd also scan the computer again & post All trouble code numbers found.

After all those checks you should have an idea if it's a fuel, ignition, or a engine mechanical problem. Hopefully the used FPR is ok & the engine will run better.
More trouble shooting thoughts for consideration, let us know what you find.
 
#35 ·
Hey, today I replaced the FPR and... engine still dies after put in gear. But this time the spark plugs are dry! Engine runs more smoothly and starts immediately after turning the ignition switch.

But this time I get these codes: 173, 326, 335

I checked the IAC, EGR Valve and MAF (it's clear) and all it's good I thing.

Unfortunately I don't have or access to vacuum gauge.
 
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