Sable 93' - 3.0 V6 - Engine after put an gear or braking - Taurus Car Club of America : Ford Taurus Forum
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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 05:35 AM Thread Starter
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Sable 93' - 3.0 V6 - Engine after put an gear or braking

Hi all!

I have a problem with my Mercury Sable from 1993 with Vulcan V6 3.0 Engine.

About a month ago I replaced a forward planet (#1) and sun gear shell(?) (#2)

I'll put a photo with these parts (a broken ones and new)

After repair a transmission I drive this car about a two weeks. TS work properly and changes smoothly gears.
Two weeks after I slow down to stop on lights...and a engine dies. I noticed engine dies only on OD/D/R gear, but on 1 no!
I tested how the car keeps on 1 gear while driving. When Im braking, engine chokes and dies with big hit. This happens on +/- 2000rpm.

After this situation I checked the check engine light with KOER and KOEO test.
Then I have a codes: 326, 335 and 565.
Some days after I replaced a EGR Valve and CANP to work ones and I tested the car.
Same things - car dies after put a gear, but on 1 starts properly. When I driving on this gear and braking to stop, engine chokes at this time on 1000rpm and dies without 'hit'!

After this I checked again codes. I get this time: 326, 335, 639.
The worst is it, I replace the speed sensor to new about a two years ago...

About other things I cleared the MAF and IAC. Nothing has improved.

On this time I don't have any idea what to do now. I really love this car, but this problem really annoys me.

At the end I really sorry for my english and I hope You help me

Best regards
Kamil
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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 10:29 AM
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Welcome to TCCA.

I see you don't have any replies yet, so I'll see if I can get things started.

Good idea to have scanned for & posted the trouble code Numbers, as they can often provide good trouble shooting clues.

You've been busy on the transmission repair I see. It seems to have been ok after the repair for a while, so what "event" preceded the latest problems?

Lets begin with the basics, is the transmission fluid level correct & are you using the specified fluid? Is the fluid condition ok, no metal, or burned smell, does it still look clear & pink color?

Were you careful to keep it very clean inside during the repair & did you properly flush the cooler lines of any debris. Did you replace the transmission filter after the repair & is it the specified Ford filter?

After the repair did you install an additional inline transmission fluid filter in the return fluid line, like a Magnefine, to remove any remaining debris that may be stirred up & circulating in the fluid?

Have you fixed the P0326 & P0335 out of range EVP/PPE voltage problem?

Have you fixed the P0639 TSS = Turbine Speed Sensor, insufficient input trouble code problem? It may be a loose electrical connector, faulty wiring, or bad sensor.

94 Taurus GL 3.8L PEP204A
99 Ranger 4dr 4.0L 5spd Auto
Payload & Tow Pkg

Details are trifles, but trifles make perfection & perfection is no trifle (Ben Franklin)
Our signature is a sign of a job completed, autograph your work with excellence.
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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
You've been busy on the transmission repair I see. It seems to have been ok after the repair for a while, so what "event" preceded the latest problems?
Everything was fine. Transmission change gears very smoothly. The "event" what preceded this problem was braking to stop on lights. I slowly braking and on 1000rpm engine stalls and rpms fall to +/- 600 and engine dies

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Lets begin with the basics, is the transmission fluid level correct & are you using the specified fluid? Is the fluid condition ok, no metal, or burned smell, does it still look clear & pink color?
Yes is correct. I used preferred fluid for this transmission. In fluid is no any metal and is not have a burned smell. And yes, it look clear and pink color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Were you careful to keep it very clean inside during the repair & did you properly flush the cooler lines of any debris. Did you replace the transmission filter after the repair & is it the specified Ford filter?
Generally speaking: Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
After the repair did you install an additional inline transmission fluid filter in the return fluid line, like a Magnefine, to remove any remaining debris that may be stirred up & circulating in the fluid?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Have you fixed the P0326 & P0335 out of range EVP/PPE voltage problem?
No. I don't have any idea where to start to checked this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Have you fixed the P0639 TSS = Turbine Speed Sensor, insufficient input trouble code problem? It may be a loose electrical connector, faulty wiring, or bad sensor.
No... I checked this sensor, replacing to other working one, I checked the wiring and everything is okay, I think.


Today I checked the codes after hard warming engine and I have codes: 336, 211 and 173 (with 326 and 639 of course)

I don't know what is a really problem, because when I started on "1" and in move on +/- 20km/h changes the gear to OD/D everything seems fine...while I don't want to stop, then the engine dies.
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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 01:34 PM
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Ok that's good feedback, so lets think about this some more.

When coming to a stop & the engine want's to stall, it suggests that the torque converter isn't unlocking. This is like coming to a stop with a manual transmission in gear & not pushing in on the clutch to take the transmission out of gear to disconnect the engine from the drive line, it'll stall the engine. SO when coming to a stop, what happens if you quickly shift to "N", does that prevent the stall?

If the TSS sensor isn't providing the computer with good information, it can corrupt transmission shifting. So the TSS problem needs to be fixed & may be causing the engine stall when coming to a stop.

Were you having EGR problems before the transmission repair?

94 Taurus GL 3.8L PEP204A
99 Ranger 4dr 4.0L 5spd Auto
Payload & Tow Pkg

Details are trifles, but trifles make perfection & perfection is no trifle (Ben Franklin)
Our signature is a sign of a job completed, autograph your work with excellence.
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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
SO when coming to a stop, what happens if you quickly shift to "N", does that prevent the stall?
Yes! After this, everything back to normal and engine works good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
If the TSS sensor isn't providing the computer with good information, it can corrupt transmission shifting. So the TSS problem needs to be fixed & may be causing the engine stall when coming to a stop.
I came back from holiday with a damaged sensor two years ago and everything works fine in that moment (except transmission in "accident mode" of course)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Were you having EGR problems before the transmission repair?
No, I think. I never doing a KOER&KOEO tests. But everything works fine and it did not show that something is broken.


I will add a one think. Only on "1" gear I can start driving and braking. On this gear engine and transmission works fine. Only on OD/D/R engine dies after put a gear from P/N at a standstill.

Last edited by VectroV; 11-21-2016 at 03:09 PM.
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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 03:08 PM
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Make sure the battery cables & their connections are clean, bright & tight.
Check the ground (B-) connection between the battery & engine & the body to engine connections are in place & clean, bright & tight.
Make sure the battery & alternator will pass an electrical load test. These are basic things that need to be right.

94 Taurus GL 3.8L PEP204A
99 Ranger 4dr 4.0L 5spd Auto
Payload & Tow Pkg

Details are trifles, but trifles make perfection & perfection is no trifle (Ben Franklin)
Our signature is a sign of a job completed, autograph your work with excellence.
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Make sure the battery cables & their connections are clean, bright & tight.
Check the ground (B-) connection between the battery & engine & the body to engine connections are in place & clean, bright & tight.
I checked this too and in my opinion this things works fine and connections are clean, bright and tight


Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Make sure the battery & alternator will pass an electrical load test. These are basic things that need to be right.
Sorry for my ignorance, but how to start a load test?
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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VectroV View Post
Yes! After this, everything back to normal and engine works good.




I came back from holiday with a damaged sensor two years ago and everything works fine in that moment (except transmission in "accident mode" of course)



No, I think. I never doing a KOER&KOEO tests. But everything works fine and it did not show that something is broken.


I will add a one think. Only on "1" gear I can start driving and braking. On this gear engine and transmission works fine. Only on OD/D/R engine dies after put a gear from P/N at a standstill.
Ok, more good feedback. So the engine doesn't stall if you quickly shift to "N" when stopping. This indicates the torque converter isn't unlocking.
Could be TSS problem, or maybe you have a speed sensor problem, as the transmission uses it's output to govern up & down shifting & the cruise control & ABS systems also use it's PID signal to operate.
SO, are you having any problems with cruise control, or your ABS system, if you have those options?

If your scan tool can read live data, set it up to monitor the speed sensor as you accelerate from a stop, while driving at various speeds & when coming to a stop, to see if it has any signal hang up, or drop outs, as an unsteady speed sensor signal will confuse the computer on transmission up & down shifting.

On being able to move off & stop in 1st gear without a problem is a good clue but I'm not certain yet what it's trying to tell us!!!

Is the TRS = Transmission Range Sensor, where it's fastened atop the transmission & where the shift linkage & electrical connector attaches, all fastened properly? No loose bolts, cables, electrical connector, No corrosion on the electrical connector pins or sockets, no bent pins, spread sockets, no loose or damaged wiring to the electrical connector. Are you certain you have it properly adjusted/preset with the locating pin, so it's shift positions are properly indexed so they correctly match the instrument panel shift indicator positions?

Same electrical inspection for the firewall computer electrical connector wiring & pins & sockets.

Same for the body to engine & battery to engine ground straps mentioned in my previous post.

94 Taurus GL 3.8L PEP204A
99 Ranger 4dr 4.0L 5spd Auto
Payload & Tow Pkg

Details are trifles, but trifles make perfection & perfection is no trifle (Ben Franklin)
Our signature is a sign of a job completed, autograph your work with excellence.

Last edited by pawpaw; 12-04-2016 at 02:09 PM.
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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
SO, are you having any problems with cruise control, or your ABS system, if you have those options?
I'm really sorry, but I completely forgot this one thing! I noticed after crossing a 30km/h (not always) the ANTI-LOCK light has appeared. But, I have not noticed any problems with braking

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
If your scan tool can read live data[...]
I don't using any scan tools. Only check engine light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Is the TRS = Transmission Range Sensor, where it's fastened atop the transmission & where the shift linkage & electrical connector attaches, all fastened properly? No loose bolts, cables, electrical connector, No corrosion on the electrical connector pins or sockets, no bent pins, spread sockets, no loose or damaged wiring to the electrical connector. Are you certain you have it properly adjusted/preset with the locating pin, so it's shift positions are properly indexed so they correctly match the instrument panel shifter positions?
My mechanic incorrectly installed a plug and everything worked well. At the next day I checked everything and I corrected the plug and the car after this rode two weeks without a problem. For other things what You writing - yes, I checked this too and in my opinion this part is working properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawpaw View Post
Same electrical inspection for the firewall computer electrical connector wiring & pins & sockets.
Same for the body to engine & battery to engine ground straps mentioned in my previous post.
From what I checked I don't see any issues with connections or wiring problems.
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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 05:38 PM
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You can perform a limited alternator load test using your electrical DVM/Multi-meter, to monitor voltage at the battery connections at engine idle speed. It should be around 13.2 - 13.5 VDC.
Then turn on some heavy electrical loads, like the head lights, rear window defroster, cabin heater blower on High speed, push the cigar lighter in so it heats, while monitoring the multi-meter DC voltage, then rev the engine to about 2000-2500 rpm & see if it'll regulate the voltage to about 14-15 or so volts DC.

When you start the engine cold, does the battery have enough energy to turn the starter motor at a good rpm, without the headlights dimming really bad, or the starter motor sounding like it's having a difficult time/slow rpm, while cranking the engine for the cold start?

If the battery has removable cell caps, how does each cell specific gravity measure using your hydrometer? How closely matched is each battery cell specific gravity reading? This can give you an idea of how the alternator, battery, battery cables & their connections are handling a heavy electrical load, how well the alternator & battery cables & their connections are doing keeping the battery charged & being able to supply electrical power to run the engine with heavy electrical loads on it & the specific gravity will tell you how healthy each battery cell is.

Here in the USA we have auto parts stores that will make these tests at no cost, so maybe you have like stores where you live that could check your electrical system, if you find something that doesn't test right, or if you don't have a multi-meter, or hydrometer, or don't have friends that have those test instruments for you to borrow to perform the tests.

94 Taurus GL 3.8L PEP204A
99 Ranger 4dr 4.0L 5spd Auto
Payload & Tow Pkg

Details are trifles, but trifles make perfection & perfection is no trifle (Ben Franklin)
Our signature is a sign of a job completed, autograph your work with excellence.

Last edited by pawpaw; 11-23-2016 at 10:10 AM.
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