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Intermitten grinding/scraping from belt train?

4K views 35 replies 9 participants last post by  apbing 
#1 ·
Hello,
05 Taurus w/ vulcan motor, 164k mi.

The other day I'm sitting at a stop light I hear this low toned grinding noise...Almost like someone elses brakes grinding some as they come to a stop. Problem is it was from my car. I had just gotten off the highway, turned off the AC and rolled both windows down. The grinding lasted maybe 5 sec and that was it. I pulled into a parking lot and tried my best to re-create it - turned the wheels back and forth, cycled the AC on and off (it seems to be engaging and working), increased RPM - nothing would re-produce it the noise. I am getting a little bit of noise from the belt train area, so I figured it's most likely the idler or tensioner (I've owned the car since 120k mi and not sure if they've ever been replaced).

Then, this morning on my way to work it did it again, this time slow moving in a roundabout, heater was on low. It did it for maybe 1 min and I slipped the car in neutral and increased RPMS - the sound changed tone/frequency some, but not as much as I would expect. Because of this it makes me think I can rule out the AC unit. Not being able to reproduce it sure is frustrating.

Any other thoughts?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Hello,
05 Taurus w/ vulcan motor, 164k mi.

The other day I'm sitting at a stop light I hear this low toned grinding noise...Almost like someone elses brakes grinding some as they come to a stop. Problem is it was from my car. I had just gotten off the highway, turned off the AC and rolled both windows down. The grinding lasted maybe 5 sec and that was it. I pulled into a parking lot and tried my best to re-create it - turned the wheels back and forth, cycled the AC on and off (it seems to be engaging and working), increased RPM - nothing would re-produce it the noise. I am getting a little bit of noise from the belt train area, so I figured it's most likely the idler or tensioner (I've owned the car since 120k mi and not sure if they've ever been replaced).

Then, this morning on my way to work it did it again, this time slow moving in a roundabout, heater was on low. It did it for maybe 1 min and I slipped the car in neutral and increased RPMS - the sound changed tone/frequency some, but not as much as I would expect. Because of this it makes me think I can rule out the AC unit. Not being able to reproduce it sure is frustrating.

Any other thoughts?
Pop the belt of and turn things by hand. If your A/C clutch plate looks like the pic, visual thing, you answer your own question. Maybe idler pulley, small chance Alt.

-chart-
 
#4 · (Edited)
Well guys I got it to finally make the horrific noise and I had my phone handy!

I drove it roughly 50 mi at hwy speeds, no AC and it started to make the noise when I got off the hwy. I got home and popped the hood. It was making some growling, but not the bad bad sound. I increased rpms a few times and it made more noise, but no smoking gun yet. Then I turned the AC on and walked right back to the area and starting filming. You'll hear a click at about 25s which I think is the compressor clutch engaging? Then at 45s you'll hear it really get noisy. I decreased rpms and the noise stayed, even after I heard the click again. Thoughts?

Odd part is that this morning while driving it did it, and I didn't have the AC on at all since yesterday. Also, when I was screwing around yesterday I tried the AC a few times and it wouldn't produce the noise.

https://youtu.be/vFmu0ALF_sc
 
#6 · (Edited)
I let things cool off and grabbed the pulley on the ac unit and could wobble it. Now...do I replace the whole unit or try just the clutch? What are the odds I f'd the shaft up?


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Bit of a trick but drive plate, hot wire $5 slot in the fuse box relay by the battery that engages the A/C. Loosen the end bolt and remove it. The drive plate should pull off, maybe need couple screwdrivers to encourage it to slide off. The pulley/bearings are held on by a snap ring. Might need to loosen the A/C mounting bolts and let the compressor down a bit to get to the snap ring. Pulley/bearing should slide off with couple screw drivers. If the coil has ~3.2 ohms and is not phsycally damaged, it should stay on and be reused. New pulley goes on same way, new clutch drive plate has to be shimmed to air gap. ~0.020" or about 2 index cards thick, 3 index cards too wide.

Reminder, unhook the hot wire as soon as the end bolt is loosened. Then take the belt off.

I had '01 and '03 fail the same week, same way. I paid a younger guy 1 hour to change the pulley and plate. I am too old for that kind of thing. Parts in the picture from the JY, $12 off a car sitting on the ground.

Best of luck.

-chart-
 
#7 · (Edited)
Chart - Seems easy enough in theory...

$5 hotwire... what costs $5 about it? Do I just use a piece of wire and jumper the relay?

I hope I can get a socket or wrench in there to get the end nut off. And once thats off, the snap ring sounds rather fun, but doable I guess. My current plan is to get this clutch off and just replace it. If the shaft on the compressor is screwed up, I'm just going to get a shorter belt and say the heck with it. The car is my work commuter and while AC would be nice, I'm not too keen on dropping a bunch of money on it at the shop to evac and recharge the ac.

Is there a good how to on this? I find LOTS of info, but mainly conversation about removing the entire compressor or talk of dropping the sub-frame.

Also - can you explain a little bit more about the shims? I get the idea you have to shim it, but where do the shims go? they look so small in the pic? and I read somewhere that you have to be careful because the installed shim should be re-used, but extra shims are on there too? From what I understand is the installed shim is between the friction plate and the pulley on the shaft and the extras are on the outboard side of the friction plate under the nut?
 
#10 ·
Chart - Seems easy enough in theory...

$5 hotwire... what costs $5 about it? Do I just use a piece of wire and jumper the relay?

I hope I can get a socket or wrench in there to get the end nut off. And once thats off, the snap ring sounds rather fun, but doable I guess. My current plan is to get this clutch off and just replace it. If the shaft on the compressor is screwed up, I'm just going to get a shorter belt and say the heck with it.


Also - can you explain a little bit more about the shims? I get the idea you have to shim it, but where do the shims go? they look so small in the pic? and I read somewhere that you have to be careful because the installed shim should be re-used, but extra shims are on there too? From what I understand is the installed shim is between the friction plate and the pulley on the shaft and the extras are on the outboard side of the friction plate under the nut?
I think $5 is a typo, i think it is #5 slot in the fuse box relay by the battery, use a wire to jumper it

Right-angle snap-ring pliers will reach the snap ring.

As long as your pulley is still spinning, the compressor shaft should be unaffected by all this.


Shims go on the shaft before the clutch plate goes on.
^+1
The installed shims can be reused, many times they will set the correct gap with the new pulley. New clutch comes with new shims (~5) if old ones are lost or if gap needs adjusted.
Shims go between pulley and clutch plate, extras are not used.

The whole point of the shims is to set the air gap between clutch plate and pulley. If gap is too small the clutch plate will drag when engine running - A/C off. If gap is too big the clutch plate cannot be sucked against the pulley face when the coil is energized to engage the compressor. Not too difficult, just must be within the range specified.
When I did mine I used the new shims, got the gap right first time, did not have to take off clutch plate again to adjust the gap.
 
#8 ·
Shims go on the shaft before the clutch plate goes on.
 
#9 ·
OK good - so I drop a shim in, put the plate on and torque the nut, then measure and adjust. I can handle that. My fear is I'll get the plate off and eventually the snap ring (if its not RUSTED in place), only to find the bearing/pulley won't come off. I will not be dropping the subframe or paying 500+ to have a shop do it. I don't need ac that bad in my commuter car, so worst case last ditch effort would be to shim the compressor out some and use a shorter belt.

Can someone point my in the direction of where and how to hotwire the relay to engage the clutch?
 
#11 ·
Excellent. I'm actually pretty handy and cheap, so I feel like I can tackle this. Just as long as I can actually get the snap ring out and get the pulley/bearing off and the new one on. I don't have a puller handy. The AC is actually working just fine...minus the horrific noises in my video, so my hope is the coil is good, its just the plate and the bearing. The nice thing is I do have a 2nd vehicle (and equally worn out lol) so time is not of the essence, but the taurus gets much better gas mileage....

I did see some pics of the pulley installed w/ the snap ring - pretty beefy ring, so latching onto it shouldn't be hard, but I fear it'll be rusted in pretty good. As for getting the new pulley on, is there a lip or stop or something to make sure its on all the way and in alignment with the belt route?
 
#12 ·
My A/C was the same, worked fine, just made a terrific rattling noise when car was running because the rubber clutch plate springs were worn out, all quiet when the A/C was on.

I do not recall any rust whatsoever when removing the bolt and snap ring. I think new clutch assembly came with new snap-ring. Pulley should come right off, no puller necessary. Reinstalling just push as far onto the shaft as it will go, the snap-ring will dictate the position on the shaft and secure it.

Having the time is beneficial. As far as lowering the subframe, I think some ppl have done it without touching the subframe, some have removed the bolts and lowered subframe. I just loosened the bolts part way to lower subframe enough. I think I did raise the engine back up for clearance to remove old OEM clutch plate - very tight.
When reinstalling there is more room if new clutch plate is newer design without OEM rubber springs.
 
#13 ·
Well, change of plans. I talked with my work buddy and reviewed what is involved with dropping the frame. He buys wrecked cars and fixes/flips them and told me dropping it looks super easy and better than fumbling around with doing it in place. So, plan is drop the sub frame (but doing so by releasing the top 3 strut bolts, not the pinch bolt) and going that route. The original plans say to remove the end link - they talking tie rod or sway bar?
 
#15 ·
So, I'll be doing more research about dropping the subframe, and I've seen some ppl in areas that use road salt mention their subframe bolts were eaten away - has anyone had issues getting the bolts out? I plan to start soaking them in some lubricant a few days before trying to remove them - my worst fear is I'll snap one of the bolts off.

Also, that nut/plate thing thats on the backside of the bolt - what keeps it captive and can it be reached without much effort?
 
#16 · (Edited)
So, I'll be doing more research about dropping the subframe, and I've seen some ppl in areas that use road salt mention their subframe bolts were eaten away - has anyone had issues getting the bolts out? I plan to start soaking them in some lubricant a few days before trying to remove them - my worst fear is I'll snap one of the bolts off.

Also, that nut/plate thing thats on the backside of the bolt - what keeps it captive and can it be reached without much effort?
Pic of what it looks like, one original from 10 year old rust belt car, top in the pic, pickup from the JY. Fronts worse than rears. If your shank twists in two when loosening, then your sub frame is ready to fall in the road. Threads not likely to be rusted in place. Captive nut is likely to be OK read of a case here long ago where the nut came loose in it's cage.

When I have mine out, I put wheel bearing grease on the shank, not the threads. Best torque to spec when putting back.

Again, issue is the shank, not the threads. Lots of good bolts at the JY.

-chart-
 
#25 ·
Text book, 12mm coarse thread grade 10.9 grade dry threads = max 92 ft lb. Of course that is for the nut, slightly different turning the bolt. I use a 16" flex handle, pull good hard pull. I have had these off 4 cars, never an issue, take them off with electric impact, put them back on but only couple hammers then finish with the manual pull. My AllData expired. Only one of my 3 computers will run the pictures.

Of course if the threads are dry and no plated. Plated drops the max back to 79. Oil them and it goes back to 69.

-chart-
 
#26 ·
76 ft lbs per Alldata for my '03 Sable
 
#27 ·
I didn't get a chance yet to fix the clutch - hopefully this week.

My Pa told me I likely took out the seal on the compressor though if it got hot... If the AC was working when I parked it last week (it only made the grinding noise for maybe 2 days before I parked it) do you think I'll sneak past with just the clutch job? Also, I'll need to drive it 35 min to a friends place to help with the job - would it be best to engage the AC or to leave it off?

Also, ppl have been telling me when you run the defrost some HVAC's on cars cycle the AC to knock the humidity down - I wasn't so sure my 05 had this feature because the HVAC controls are pretty plain jane... does this car do that?
 
#28 · (Edited)
I didn't get a chance yet to fix the clutch - hopefully this week.

My Pa told me I likely took out the seal on the compressor though if it got hot... If the AC was working when I parked it last week (it only made the grinding noise for maybe 2 days before I parked it) do you think I'll sneak past with just the clutch job? Also, I'll need to drive it 35 min to a friends place to help with the job - would it be best to engage the AC or to leave it off?

Also, ppl have been telling me when you run the defrost some HVAC's on cars cycle the AC to knock the humidity down - I wasn't so sure my 05 had this feature because the HVAC controls are pretty plain jane... does this car do that?
See pic pulley bearing seal fail from heat. A/C compressor fine. The shaft seal is quite romote from the pulley and in the aluminum housing so not likely to get hot.

Defrost always used A/C unless the ambient is really cold.

-chart-
 
#31 ·
Clutch bearing was toasted like Chart's on my 2001 and the coil was also showing signs of heat damage. I pulled the compressor since I have AC equipment and did a bench top replacement. Two years later compressor is still holding refrigerant Chance are the seal is ok. On my 2006 I replaced the whole compressor since a clutch was about half or more of the compressor cost.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Clutch bearing was toasted like Chart's on my 2001 and the coil was also showing signs of heat damage. I pulled the compressor since I have AC equipment and did a bench top replacement. Two years later compressor is still holding refrigerant Chance are the seal is ok. On my 2006 I replaced the whole compressor since a clutch was about half or more of the compressor cost.
Bought my manifold but it is likely way out of date, new in the box, someone paid $147 for this back in 1988. My son does A/C in a factory, he said it is of no use to him. $5 at a garage sale, can't pass this stuff up, even if it is of little/no use.

-chart-
 
#36 · (Edited)
OK, things are all good now! We lowered the passenger side sub frame, made the job much easier, even though it was sort of a bugger anyway. To get the clutch plate off, we had to lower and raise it several times to find the sweet spot, along with the pulley. Getting the new coil on wasn't the easiest either, but doable with a 2x4 and hammer. My old bearing was toast and the plate was missing the rubber bushings and was in two pieces. Coil was still working but looked badly pitted.

We had so much darn fun, we even replaced the cam synchronizer too (OEM unit). I'm one of the guys that marked it up with a marker and even though it was an OEM unit, it wasn't EXACTLY the same, but a tooth in either direction was OBVIOUSLY not timed correctly. My buddy helping me was telling me you can rotate the body of the sycronyzer to advance or retard the timing - so that got me thinking - could I use a timing light now to get it dead on accurate?

Anyways, thanks everyone for the help - no more horrendous growling and the AC is working fine!

PS - I'd like to add, either there are small difference in the cars, or other people have much more patience/smaller hands than me, but doing this job from the top would have been NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. I could barley get my hands in there to get the darn belt on, let alone pull the clutch apart!
 
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