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Old 11-20-2012, 04:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks!

I had to wait a few days before I could continue troubleshooting because my battery wouldn't hold a charge. So I just got a new Interstate Mega-Tron 58R today and got back to testing.

I'm still not sure if I have PATS

I didn't see a trunk ajar light come on when I opened the trunk, is it certain I have one? If it is the same light as the door ajar light then no it did not come on. The door ajar light came on for every door and went off immediately after shutting EXCEPT for the passenger side front door, this door took a few seconds to shut off the door ajar light... Does that seem like the source?

I pulled the battery-saver relay and the drain dropped to .0 something (don't think it was below .05 though)...

I understand that this is the relay that sends the car to sleep mode after so long without use. I tested the relay by using a different one, both drew amps.

So, if I were to continue testing following the circuits, how would I know which one was bad if it takes 40 minutes for the car to go into sleep mode? For example, if I disconnected the dome lamp connector, wouldn't I have to wait 40 minutes for the amps to drop if that were the problem?

From what I am understanding, the battery saver relay controls 5 or 6 lamp switches and 2 relays, that is a lot of waiting in between each test. If I have to though then I have to but I just want to make sure I am understanding it correctly...

Does anyone know what the amp draw should be after leaving the car alone but before it goes to sleep mode?

Last edited by wyteboy314; 11-20-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I know people on here have reported the ICP causing a parasitic drain, not from a stuck tape, but some circuitry issue. SHOZ123 posted about it once.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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If you have a GL, then you probably don't have PATS. I think it was only LX and SHO models. If you had PATS, you key head would be bigger than a quarter.

Also, do you have remote keyless entry or not?

Based on the manual, it says the door ajar light should come on when the trunk is open, but looking at the wiring diagrams I'm not so sure. I guess you should make sure the trunk light is going off when you close the trunk. If it is, I think the trunk switch would be working properly.

Passenger front door might be the culprit, so give the latch a spray with WD-40 to see if it makes the ajar light go out faster.

I don't think the delay is as long as 40 minutes. I would leave my meter on and check every five minutes for about 15 minutes. If you don't see a change in that amount of time, you don't have to wait more than few minutes.

I commonly quote 50 mA or 0.05 amps, but there's a lot of wiggle room there. It should be less than 100 mA though.

So check the trunk light and the RF door latch and get back to us.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Your '96 GL doesn't have PATS. 1996 (fall of '95, actually) was the first year PATS was used by Ford and only their fancier rides (high-end Lincolns and Mustangs) had it available. I liked the first-version PATS, it was easy to program first keys without a reader and you only needed one working key to program more. Ford wised up fast, by '98 they slammed the door on us locksmiths.

Just to settle this for sure, how about taking a pic of both the front and back of your door/ignition key and posting it here?
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:29 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lgbpop View Post
Your '96 GL doesn't have PATS. 1996 (fall of '95, actually) was the first year PATS was used by Ford and only their fancier rides (high-end Lincolns and Mustangs) had it available. I liked the first-version PATS, it was easy to program first keys without a reader and you only needed one working key to program more. Ford wised up fast, by '98 they slammed the door on us locksmiths.

Just to settle this for sure, how about taking a pic of both the front and back of your door/ignition key and posting it here?
I would but the only key I have is an Axxess dupe key.. Worst comes to worst, I'll eventually get there and I should run into a module for it if I have it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by behlinla View Post
If you have a GL, then you probably don't have PATS. I think it was only LX and SHO models. If you had PATS, you key head would be bigger than a quarter.

Also, do you have remote keyless entry or not?

Based on the manual, it says the door ajar light should come on when the trunk is open, but looking at the wiring diagrams I'm not so sure. I guess you should make sure the trunk light is going off when you close the trunk. If it is, I think the trunk switch would be working properly.

Passenger front door might be the culprit, so give the latch a spray with WD-40 to see if it makes the ajar light go out faster.

I don't think the delay is as long as 40 minutes. I would leave my meter on and check every five minutes for about 15 minutes. If you don't see a change in that amount of time, you don't have to wait more than few minutes.

I commonly quote 50 mA or 0.05 amps, but there's a lot of wiggle room there. It should be less than 100 mA though.

So check the trunk light and the RF door latch and get back to us.

I do not have a key fob for key less entry but I'm not sure if the car has it or not.

I pulled the backseat down with the doors closed to check the trunk, I also unplugged it to make sure, no luck...

None of my WD40 cans and PB Blaster will spray although they have fluid, I have the worst of luck with those two brand cans. I did however find the connector that goes to the door ajar switch on the front passenger side using AllData's diagrams. After a nice long fight, I got the connector unplugged but the amp drain was still there.

Quote:
From AllData:

The battery saver relay is controlled by the Generic Electronic Module (GEM) and is located in the fuse junction panel.

The battery saver relay is designed to supply B+ voltage to:

Dome and map lamp switches. Have not checked
Visor lamps. Don't Have
Glove compartment lamp switch. Light doesn't stay on + part of C235 (see below)
Cargo lamp switch. Checked

Interior lamp switch on headlamp switch. Unplugged C235 from Fuse
Block which contains "headlamp switch", still drained amps


Interior courtesy lamp relay. Checked
Delayed accessory relay. Checked

The battery saver relay prevents excessive battery drain by interior lighting circuits.

The battery saver relay operates as follows:
The GEM supplies a ground signal to the battery saver relay anytime one of the wake up inputs of the GEM is activated.

A wake-up command is sent when:

Any door becomes ajar or is opened or closed. Unofficially confirmed not the problem???

The ignition key is inserted or removed in the ignition switch. checked
The ignition switch is turned from OFF to RUN. checked
The ignition switch is turned from OFF to ACC. checked

"ignition switch" is a part of the C235 which I tested when disconnected (see attachment)


A wake-up request is received from the remote anti-theft personality module. Checked, PATS Module is part of C235

The driver or passenger door lock cylinder is turned to unlock. Passenger side checked

The GEM will maintain the ground input with ignition in RUN or for 40 minutes from the last input activation with ignition switch in the OFF position. After 40 minutes the ground signal is discontinued.
The only positive is that I eliminated a bunch of stuff when I disconnected the C235 and the drain was still there, see attachment for the list...
Attached Thumbnails
Parasitic battery drain-ace-0-1-.jpg  

Last edited by wyteboy314; 11-20-2012 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:03 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Just to be clear, you've isolated the draw to fuse #23. In addition to the GEM, that fuse also powers the PATS (which you don't have) and the RAP module (you're not sure if you have).

At the GEM, you're isolated the draw to the battery saver relay becoming energized. You haven't determined concessively what's causing this.

One thing you need to be careful of is unplugging things. That test will only work if the circuits you want to check are normally open (NO). If something is normally closed, the act of unplugging it might cause the GEM to wake up or fail to shut down because it senses something is not how it should be.

Others have mentioned unplugging the radio and checking the hood switch so I would check those as well.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:08 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by behlinla View Post
Just to be clear, you've isolated the draw to fuse #23. In addition to the GEM, that fuse also powers the PATS (which you don't have) and the RAP module (you're not sure if you have).

At the GEM, you're isolated the draw to the battery saver relay becoming energized. You haven't determined concessively what's causing this.
Correct! I'm having trouble understanding if the GEM is ruled out or not now that I see the amp draw coming from the battery saver relay (or fuse).

Quote:
One thing you need to be careful of is unplugging things. That test will only work if the circuits you want to check are normally open (NO). If something is normally closed, the act of unplugging it might cause the GEM to wake up or fail to shut down because it senses something is not how it should be.
Are you referring to unplugging the main connector at the fuse panel or the passenger door connector, or both? I really don't know how to test the circuits the right way and sorta guessed that I should unplug them.

Quote:
Others have mentioned unplugging the radio and checking the hood switch so I would check those as well.
I will check those tomorrow... I never even payed attention but does this radio require those forks to remove it? Also, where is the hood switch and what does it do? I don't have an under hood light unless it is cut somewhere.

A couple things worth noting

There is a braided ground strap screwed into the driver side hood latch, it is cut short though so I don't know where it went. AllData shows three grounds on the driver side fender but none that far back and not on the hood latch.

The radio kept all my radio presets after the car was without a battery for 24 hours.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:09 AM   #18 (permalink)
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That hood strap always breaks on 3rd gens. I've never seen one intact.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:19 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyteboy314 View Post
I would but the only key I have is an Axxess dupe key.. Worst comes to worst, I'll eventually get there and I should run into a module for it if I have it...




That answers that. Axxess is basically a system created for non-locksmiths to make keys. Most I have seen are cut too deeply, and the spacing is way off because the machine operators don't understand the importance of correct spacing and depths. Seriously, get to a locksmith and ask them to cut you a proper key by code; they can sight-read the cuts on your key and generate a key that will be like an original.

More importantly, Axxess doesn't do VATS, PATS or transponder keys unless they just started doing so. Does your key have the number 24 coined on one side of the head? (Or H75P if plastic head) If so that's the standard Ford 8-cut (H75) blank, no transponder, so no PATS onboard.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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SOLVED

Well this is embarrassing...

The battery was the only thing wrong with the car. It turns out I never waited long enough in the first place to allow the GEM to turn off. It definitely takes about 40 minutes for it to go off. I screwed up because I wasn't realizing that the ammeter had to stay connected and on the whole time while waiting to see if the GEM went off, it was a common sense mistake. I learned some stuff in the process so it wasn't all bad but I apologize for wasting everyone's time. And thanks for the help provided!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lgbpop View Post
That answers that. Axxess is basically a system created for non-locksmiths to make keys. Most I have seen are cut too deeply, and the spacing is way off because the machine operators don't understand the importance of correct spacing and depths. Seriously, get to a locksmith and ask them to cut you a proper key by code; they can sight-read the cuts on your key and generate a key that will be like an original.

More importantly, Axxess doesn't do VATS, PATS or transponder keys unless they just started doing so. Does your key have the number 24 coined on one side of the head? (Or H75P if plastic head) If so that's the standard Ford 8-cut (H75) blank, no transponder, so no PATS onboard.
It is the 8-cut blank as you mentioned. I will go to a locksmith when I can. How much does it usually cost? Also, what do I need to take for them to make a better replacement, just the key or the key and a code?? Would it have the ford emblem ?

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